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>> Even if there is a very strong neurological similarity between memories and experiences, we know that they can’t be exactly the same. “People don’t get confu

>> Even if there is a very strong neurological similarity between memories and experiences, we know that they can’t be exactly the same. “People don’t get confused between them,” What about PTSD? The theory behind EMDR therapy is that the experience didn't get fully processed and stored as a normal memory, but is in effect "stuck" part way where it continues to be a trigger for current inputs. The "R" is for reprocessing, which is the unstickung and storing that resolves the PTSD.

y-c-o-m-b 4y ago
That's a great point. Also I wonder how this pertains to flashbacks. For some reason I get flashbacks that are completely random; they occur for no particular reason (that I've identified), the memory itself can be from childhood all the way up to recent adulthood, and they have no association with any trauma or extra stimulation. For example a flashback of me in my teenage years standing at a bus stop. Fairly innocuous memory right? This issue is amplified when I consume THC; I can end up having many flashbacks while I'm high and most of them are things I haven't thought of ever since the experience occurred decades ago. I kind of appreciate them due to the nostalgia, but it's strange.
- georgeg23 4y ago
  Always figured that was the brain clearing space for new memories and saying "hey we can delete this right?"
- icare_1er 4y ago
  I have this strong impression that a new field, sat in between medical research and phylosophy, should be created: "introspection". It seems to me that certain scientifical truths regarding the nature of consciousness, how we experience things, etc, can only be addressed in a subjective manner, ie. by interrogating ourselves, and reflecting ourselves, in a scientific way, on why we feel a certain way, under what circumstances, what happen if i change parameter x or y, do i still feel the same, etc... That also sounds like heresy in terms of scientific studies but the more i read about that topic (Dennett, Penrose, etc...) the more this becomes obvious to me, that internal "thought experiments" can actually uncovered strong realities of how we think and are conscious.
vlovich123 4y ago
Not everyone suffers from PTSD (both in terms of having the triggering experience and also not developing PTSD in response to similar triggering experiences). So while the mechanism can maybe misfire / break in some cases, I don’t see how what you’ve said counteracts the broader point here. Can you elaborate?
- phkahler 4y ago
  I was directly countering the statement that people don't get confused between them. Some people DO, and it's far more common and can be less pronounces than PTSD. So yes, they do get confused in some cases, which supports the notion that they share a lot of wiring in the brain. "People don't confuse this" is the part I shot down. The rest of the piece is interesting.
  - vlovich123 4y ago
    I think that’s an ungenerous interpretation that lends itself to nitpicking because it ignores the immediately preceding context. > very strong neurological similarity between memories and experiences, we know that they can’t be exactly the same So showing that there are cases where people do confuse the two doesn’t negate the broader point that they’re not exactly the same thing in the brain, does it? Just to be clear, we’re talking strictly about flashbacks here, right? As I understand it that’s only one kind of symptom so I want to make sure we’re talking about the same one as others don’t seem relevant to this discussion to me but maybe you’re talking about something else. Assuming it is flashbacks, do you know whether patients are actually unable to distinguish memory from experience structurally within the brain? Or is it more like entering an uncontrolled dream state (eg lucid dream) into a recurring nightmare? For example people have nightmares regularly of being naked in class or have a sudden exam. People while dreaming can do all sorts of complex activities like walking around. People while dreaming also have a debilitating logic and speech impediment, characteristics of PTSD flashbacks. I don’t know about whether people have actual memories appear in dreams. Still, it’s not immediately clear to me that PTSD patients confuse experience and memory vs PTSD patients have stronger memory-driven dreams on loop and are narcoleptic so enter it suddenly. In that case, It’s possible that even the one sentence you decided to focus on isn’t even wrong unless you also classify sleep with a dream pulling from memories as confusing experience and memory. > The researchers analyzed data from the National Health and Resilience in Veterans Study, a large, long-term study of veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. They found that veterans with PTSD were nearly three times as likely as those without PTSD to report narcolepsy symptoms. When the researchers looked at brain scans of the veterans, they found that those with PTSD had significantly lower levels of hypocretin in their brains. These findings suggest that PTSD may be a risk factor for narcolepsy and that the two disorders may share a similar underlying cause. https://sleepation.com/ptsd-may-be-a-risk-factor-for-narcolepsy/ https://sleepation.com/ptsd-may-be-a-risk-factor-for-narcole... To me flashbacks always sounded like they probably reused dream machinery rather than actually confusing experience and memory. I believe PTSD patients are able to distinguish “I relived my trauma yesterday” from “I had the trauma happen again yesterday”. So in summary, a) the one statement being imprecise isn’t relevant to the point being made b) it’s not actually clear to me we know that the statement is even wrong.
2-718-281-828 4y ago
i don't understand how this is relevant to the brain distinguishing memory and perception.
- bkfunk 4y ago
  I believe parent is saying that PTSD is precisely a situation where memories act like perceptions; EMDR as a therapeutic modality with at least some evidence for efficacy is premised on the idea that it helps to make traumatic memories feel like memories rather than perceptions
- MrOwnPut 4y ago
  Because the perception is triggering a memory and the memory overtakes the perception as the new reality?
  - phkahler 4y ago
    >> Because the perception is triggering a memory and the memory overtakes the perception as the new reality? Maybe more like the perception of reality is triggering emotions from a memory of a similar reality. In more extremem cases yes, it brings back the memory too. I'd argue (and this is just me) that emotions are more distinct than perceptions and memories, and are more like annotations to both. But I'm getting way outside of any clinical model I've read about. We want traumatic events to get resolved and stored without the high emotional content that distorts current perceptions.
retrac 4y ago
The content of complex hallucinations reflect the person's memories and experiences. Are some hallucinations memories, perhaps composite memories, that are interpreted as sensory experiences?

y-c-o-m-b 4y ago

That's a great point. Also I wonder how this pertains to flashbacks. For some reason I get flashbacks that are completely random; they occur for no particular reason (that I've identified), the memory itself can be from childhood all the way up to recent adulthood, and they have no association with any trauma or extra stimulation. For example a flashback of me in my teenage years standing at a bus stop. Fairly innocuous memory right? This issue is amplified when I consume THC; I can end up having many flashbacks while I'm high and most of them are things I haven't thought of ever since the experience occurred decades ago. I kind of appreciate them due to the nostalgia, but it's strange.

georgeg23 4y ago
Always figured that was the brain clearing space for new memories and saying "hey we can delete this right?"
icare_1er 4y ago
I have this strong impression that a new field, sat in between medical research and phylosophy, should be created: "introspection". It seems to me that certain scientifical truths regarding the nature of consciousness, how we experience things, etc, can only be addressed in a subjective manner, ie. by interrogating ourselves, and reflecting ourselves, in a scientific way, on why we feel a certain way, under what circumstances, what happen if i change parameter x or y, do i still feel the same, etc... That also sounds like heresy in terms of scientific studies but the more i read about that topic (Dennett, Penrose, etc...) the more this becomes obvious to me, that internal "thought experiments" can actually uncovered strong realities of how we think and are conscious.

vlovich123 4y ago

Not everyone suffers from PTSD (both in terms of having the triggering experience and also not developing PTSD in response to similar triggering experiences). So while the mechanism can maybe misfire / break in some cases, I don’t see how what you’ve said counteracts the broader point here. Can you elaborate?

phkahler 4y ago
I was directly countering the statement that people don't get confused between them. Some people DO, and it's far more common and can be less pronounces than PTSD. So yes, they do get confused in some cases, which supports the notion that they share a lot of wiring in the brain. "People don't confuse this" is the part I shot down. The rest of the piece is interesting.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  I think that’s an ungenerous interpretation that lends itself to nitpicking because it ignores the immediately preceding context. > very strong neurological similarity between memories and experiences, we know that they can’t be exactly the same So showing that there are cases where people do confuse the two doesn’t negate the broader point that they’re not exactly the same thing in the brain, does it? Just to be clear, we’re talking strictly about flashbacks here, right? As I understand it that’s only one kind of symptom so I want to make sure we’re talking about the same one as others don’t seem relevant to this discussion to me but maybe you’re talking about something else. Assuming it is flashbacks, do you know whether patients are actually unable to distinguish memory from experience structurally within the brain? Or is it more like entering an uncontrolled dream state (eg lucid dream) into a recurring nightmare? For example people have nightmares regularly of being naked in class or have a sudden exam. People while dreaming can do all sorts of complex activities like walking around. People while dreaming also have a debilitating logic and speech impediment, characteristics of PTSD flashbacks. I don’t know about whether people have actual memories appear in dreams. Still, it’s not immediately clear to me that PTSD patients confuse experience and memory vs PTSD patients have stronger memory-driven dreams on loop and are narcoleptic so enter it suddenly. In that case, It’s possible that even the one sentence you decided to focus on isn’t even wrong unless you also classify sleep with a dream pulling from memories as confusing experience and memory. > The researchers analyzed data from the National Health and Resilience in Veterans Study, a large, long-term study of veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. They found that veterans with PTSD were nearly three times as likely as those without PTSD to report narcolepsy symptoms. When the researchers looked at brain scans of the veterans, they found that those with PTSD had significantly lower levels of hypocretin in their brains. These findings suggest that PTSD may be a risk factor for narcolepsy and that the two disorders may share a similar underlying cause. https://sleepation.com/ptsd-may-be-a-risk-factor-for-narcolepsy/ https://sleepation.com/ptsd-may-be-a-risk-factor-for-narcole... To me flashbacks always sounded like they probably reused dream machinery rather than actually confusing experience and memory. I believe PTSD patients are able to distinguish “I relived my trauma yesterday” from “I had the trauma happen again yesterday”. So in summary, a) the one statement being imprecise isn’t relevant to the point being made b) it’s not actually clear to me we know that the statement is even wrong.

2-718-281-828 4y ago

i don't understand how this is relevant to the brain distinguishing memory and perception.

bkfunk 4y ago
I believe parent is saying that PTSD is precisely a situation where memories act like perceptions; EMDR as a therapeutic modality with at least some evidence for efficacy is premised on the idea that it helps to make traumatic memories feel like memories rather than perceptions
MrOwnPut 4y ago
Because the perception is triggering a memory and the memory overtakes the perception as the new reality?
- phkahler 4y ago
  >> Because the perception is triggering a memory and the memory overtakes the perception as the new reality? Maybe more like the perception of reality is triggering emotions from a memory of a similar reality. In more extremem cases yes, it brings back the memory too. I'd argue (and this is just me) that emotions are more distinct than perceptions and memories, and are more like annotations to both. But I'm getting way outside of any clinical model I've read about. We want traumatic events to get resolved and stored without the high emotional content that distorts current perceptions.

retrac 4y ago

The content of complex hallucinations reflect the person's memories and experiences. Are some hallucinations memories, perhaps composite memories, that are interpreted as sensory experiences?