4 ms·

> where transit lines are run before the city builds up around them. I'm not sure even this is true. The city may not build up in the way the planners anticipa

> where transit lines are run before the city builds up around them. I'm not sure even this is true. The city may not build up in the way the planners anticipated. Even if it does, it will change over time.

bombcar 4y ago
Yeah, the main advantage of pre-building is that land is cheap and nobody's using it, vs post-building where you know where the density is but you have to get the land. In the cases I know of the density followed upon building the line, but that may not be universally true.
thewataccount 4y ago
From my experience playing factorio, the best way to approach it is to plan out the areas you are building to allow future "backtracking" possible - increase space between buildings, ensure new "roads" are "reasonably" arranged to allow future expansion, etc. An example of this is ensuring that driveways/building distances are a certain minimum from the road, allowing you to expand a 2 lane road to 3, etc. You build your infrastructure to, or just past the edges of what you know is being built, and make sure you reserve space past that to accompany further expansion. The lets you expand the ~factory~ city while still allowing some sanity to the underlying infrastructure. * This will likely apply to anything that needs both preplanning and unknown future expansion such as codebases
- bombcar 4y ago
  You see stuff like that done in some places (eg: https://goo.gl/maps/q4Qm1cjjF9rA6MQY6 https://goo.gl/maps/q4Qm1cjjF9rA6MQY6 - the "highway" has space all around it for expansion, and has had that for decades from when there was nothing there)
  - microtherion 4y ago
    That looks like an utterly car dependent community. I don't think you can have walkability without fairly dense construction.
alksjdalkj 4y ago
They aren't independent, the city will tend to build up along the transit lines due to the easy access to transit. E.g., the NYC outer boroughs and the DC metro area.
- Eleison23 4y ago
  That may be true for immovable train lines, but vehicle transit such as buses have routes which are subject to change, and therefore developers cannot depend on the transit lines being there in 10-20 years. Bus lines instead tend to follow where the traffic wants to go. Around here, many shopping malls double as bus stations because the primary aim of transit seems to be circulating consumers around places they will spend money.
  - wins32767 4y ago
    Consider the income levels of the staff that work at shopping malls and what that implies for their ability to pay for reliable personal transportation.
  - toast0 4y ago
    > Bus lines instead tend to follow where the traffic wants to go. Around here, many shopping malls double as bus stations because the primary aim of transit seems to be circulating consumers around places they will spend money. This is circular reasoning though. Bus lines go to the mall, but malls are built where the bus lines go. Malls use a lot of space, so carving out a little bit for transit is easy.
mattpallissard 4y ago
Maybe not so much the where, but the how (zoning regs) matter. In SLC, the roads are pleasantly wide for a city it's age. Turns out they had to be wide enough for a wagon to turn around. Trying to avoid painting yourself into a corner without over thinking is the game.
vkou 4y ago
> The city may not build up in the way the planners anticipated. It might not, but planners have a lot of forcing functions. For example, if they build a transformational backbone, and nobody uses some part of it, they can fix it, by say, moving major government offices to that area. Residents, other businesses, services will follow suit. What doesn't work is half-assed planning, where you have a grand, but myopic vision, implement it, and never adjust after-the-fact.

bombcar 4y ago

Yeah, the main advantage of pre-building is that land is cheap and nobody's using it, vs post-building where you know where the density is but you have to get the land. In the cases I know of the density followed upon building the line, but that may not be universally true.

thewataccount 4y ago

From my experience playing factorio, the best way to approach it is to plan out the areas you are building to allow future "backtracking" possible - increase space between buildings, ensure new "roads" are "reasonably" arranged to allow future expansion, etc. An example of this is ensuring that driveways/building distances are a certain minimum from the road, allowing you to expand a 2 lane road to 3, etc. You build your infrastructure to, or just past the edges of what you know is being built, and make sure you reserve space past that to accompany further expansion. The lets you expand the ~factory~ city while still allowing some sanity to the underlying infrastructure. * This will likely apply to anything that needs both preplanning and unknown future expansion such as codebases

bombcar 4y ago
You see stuff like that done in some places (eg: https://goo.gl/maps/q4Qm1cjjF9rA6MQY6 https://goo.gl/maps/q4Qm1cjjF9rA6MQY6 - the "highway" has space all around it for expansion, and has had that for decades from when there was nothing there)
- microtherion 4y ago
  That looks like an utterly car dependent community. I don't think you can have walkability without fairly dense construction.

alksjdalkj 4y ago

They aren't independent, the city will tend to build up along the transit lines due to the easy access to transit. E.g., the NYC outer boroughs and the DC metro area.

Eleison23 4y ago
That may be true for immovable train lines, but vehicle transit such as buses have routes which are subject to change, and therefore developers cannot depend on the transit lines being there in 10-20 years. Bus lines instead tend to follow where the traffic wants to go. Around here, many shopping malls double as bus stations because the primary aim of transit seems to be circulating consumers around places they will spend money.
- wins32767 4y ago
  Consider the income levels of the staff that work at shopping malls and what that implies for their ability to pay for reliable personal transportation.
- toast0 4y ago
  > Bus lines instead tend to follow where the traffic wants to go. Around here, many shopping malls double as bus stations because the primary aim of transit seems to be circulating consumers around places they will spend money. This is circular reasoning though. Bus lines go to the mall, but malls are built where the bus lines go. Malls use a lot of space, so carving out a little bit for transit is easy.

mattpallissard 4y ago

Maybe not so much the where, but the how (zoning regs) matter. In SLC, the roads are pleasantly wide for a city it's age. Turns out they had to be wide enough for a wagon to turn around. Trying to avoid painting yourself into a corner without over thinking is the game.

vkou 4y ago

> The city may not build up in the way the planners anticipated. It might not, but planners have a lot of forcing functions. For example, if they build a transformational backbone, and nobody uses some part of it, they can fix it, by say, moving major government offices to that area. Residents, other businesses, services will follow suit. What doesn't work is half-assed planning, where you have a grand, but myopic vision, implement it, and never adjust after-the-fact.