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Indeed, and it might also drive down prices. Sodium and sulphur are much more abundant than Lithium (1150x and 260x respectively). https://en.wikipedia.org/wik

Indeed, and it might also drive down prices. Sodium and sulphur are much more abundant than Lithium (1150x and 260x respectively). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth...

GekkePrutser 4y ago
Does the 1150 take into account all the oceans full of NaCl? It sounds a little low.
ddulaney 4y ago
Sodium and sulphur are very cheap and easy to get, but not because of this. Sulphur is a byproduct of lots of different industrial processes, usually oil refining. Sodium is most commonly extracted from seawater. Frequency of elements in Earth's crust is a pretty poor approximation for how easy they are to mine.
flavius29663 4y ago
This wiki page has a surprising graph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust#/media/File:Elemental_abundances.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth... The "rare earths" are actually just as common as Si. It just shows we won't be running out of them anytime soon, it's just a matter of finding ways to extract them.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  Although, by looking at the places where they are more abundant, I wouldn't be too optimist, at least with the current geopolitical climate. https://www.statista.com/statistics/277268/rare-earth-reserves-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/277268/rare-earth-reserv...
- pfdietz 4y ago
  Si is the symbol for silicon, which is the second most abundant element in the Earth's crust (after oxygen.) The REEs are certainly not as abundant as that. Si is 270,000 ppm; cerium is 60 ppm.
  - flavius29663 4y ago
    You're right, I'm dumb, the graph is 0 at 10^6 Si. So rare earths are 1 million times more rare than Si. It's similar to copper and Nickel though
    - pfdietz 4y ago
      Not a million times more rare, more like ~10,000 times. Also, Ni is more abundant in the oceanic crust than the continental crust. Lots of Ni in mantle rocks (peridotite is about 0.1% Ni.) It's interesting comparing the abundance of copper (and even more so, tin) and iron. It was a huge transition in resource availability when the iron age began.
- ojbyrne 4y ago
  I’m not sure how you’re interpreting that graph, because Si (Silicon) and Na are orders of magnitude more common than the rare earths. You might have missed that it’s a logarithmic scale.
usrusr 4y ago
Is the material that ends up in the cell a significant part of the cost? If steel was free, ICE cars could be dozens of dollars cheaper than they are. I guess material costs are a much bigger factor in batteries, but in many other products is so low that "much bigger" could still be tiny.

GekkePrutser 4y ago

Does the 1150 take into account all the oceans full of NaCl? It sounds a little low.

ddulaney 4y ago

Sodium and sulphur are very cheap and easy to get, but not because of this. Sulphur is a byproduct of lots of different industrial processes, usually oil refining. Sodium is most commonly extracted from seawater. Frequency of elements in Earth's crust is a pretty poor approximation for how easy they are to mine.

flavius29663 4y ago

This wiki page has a surprising graph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust#/media/File:Elemental_abundances.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth... The "rare earths" are actually just as common as Si. It just shows we won't be running out of them anytime soon, it's just a matter of finding ways to extract them.

squarefoot 4y ago
Although, by looking at the places where they are more abundant, I wouldn't be too optimist, at least with the current geopolitical climate. https://www.statista.com/statistics/277268/rare-earth-reserves-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/277268/rare-earth-reserv...
pfdietz 4y ago
Si is the symbol for silicon, which is the second most abundant element in the Earth's crust (after oxygen.) The REEs are certainly not as abundant as that. Si is 270,000 ppm; cerium is 60 ppm.
- flavius29663 4y ago
  You're right, I'm dumb, the graph is 0 at 10^6 Si. So rare earths are 1 million times more rare than Si. It's similar to copper and Nickel though
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    Not a million times more rare, more like ~10,000 times. Also, Ni is more abundant in the oceanic crust than the continental crust. Lots of Ni in mantle rocks (peridotite is about 0.1% Ni.) It's interesting comparing the abundance of copper (and even more so, tin) and iron. It was a huge transition in resource availability when the iron age began.
ojbyrne 4y ago
I’m not sure how you’re interpreting that graph, because Si (Silicon) and Na are orders of magnitude more common than the rare earths. You might have missed that it’s a logarithmic scale.

usrusr 4y ago

Is the material that ends up in the cell a significant part of the cost? If steel was free, ICE cars could be dozens of dollars cheaper than they are. I guess material costs are a much bigger factor in batteries, but in many other products is so low that "much bigger" could still be tiny.