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What you're describing is basically copyright, which is exactly what artists are demanding: the legal protection to which they are entitled to. Edit: Silicon V

by alxlaz 4y ago

What you're describing is basically copyright, which is exactly what artists are demanding: the legal protection to which they are entitled to. Edit: Silicon Valley exceptionalism seems to preclude some thought leaders in the field to remember the full definition of copyright: it's an artist's exclusive right to copy, distribute, adapt, display, and perform a creative work. A number of additional provisions, like fair use, are meant to balance artists' rights against public interest. Private commercial interest is not meant to be covered by fair use. No one is disputing that everyone, including companies in the private sector, is entitled to using artists' images for AI research. But things like e.g. using AI-generated images for promotional purposes are not research, and not covered by fair use. You want to use the images for that, great -- ask for permission, and pay royalties. Don't mooch.

phpisthebest 4y ago
Copyright (in the US) also includes fair use provisions of which education and research is a fair use of copyrighted work for which no permission from the artist is needed
- beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
  > fair use provisions of which education and research is a fair use I don't think people are debating fair use for education and research. It's the obvious corporate and for profit use which many see coming that is the issue. Typically, licensing structures were a solution for artists, but "AI" images seem to enable for-profit use by skirting around who created the image by implying the "AI" did, a willful ignorance of the way that the image was generated/outputted.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>I don't think people are debating fair use for education and research. It's the obvious corporate and for profit use Sounds like you are, because in copyright law there is not carve out for only non-profit education / research. Research and Education can be both profit and non-profit, copyright law does not distinguish between the 2, but it sounds like you claim is research can only ever be non-profit but given the entire computing sector in large part owes itself to commercial research (i.e Bell Labs) I find that a bit odd
    - beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
      Doesn't fair use make a distinction in the use though? Fair use in terms of commentary on something for instance is not the same as a company presenting marketing images, for example, as theirs in the selling of a product. If someone has legally protected their artwork, you can't just apply a photoshop layer to it and claim it is yours as fair use though, right? The issue seems to become almost more about provenance.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        >If someone has legally protected their artwork, you can't just apply a photoshop layer to it and claim it is yours as fair use though, right? That depends on what the layer was, and there is current cases heading to supreme court that have something similar to that so we may see however commentary is just one type of fair use and would not be a factor here, nor is anyone claiming the AI is reselling the original work. The claim is that copyright law prevents unauthorized use of a work in the training of AI, AI training could (and likely would) be treated as research, and the result of the research is a derivative work wholly separate from the original and created under fair use
Double_a_92 4y ago
The copyright to what exactly though? Imagine you're an artist that draws abstract paintings of trees. If an AI uses those, the results it produces will be generic abstract trees in your style. And since I doubt that you can copyright trees, you would have to copyright your specific style. But is that possible?
- astrange 4y ago
  It is not possible. And EU law (which is where these models were trained) has explicit allowances for machine learning anyway.
yreg 4y ago
Copyright doesn't protect your art against being copied (heh) by other artists. Artists have always been inspired by each other and copied each other's styles and ideas.

by alxlaz 4y ago

phpisthebest 4y ago

Copyright (in the US) also includes fair use provisions of which education and research is a fair use of copyrighted work for which no permission from the artist is needed

beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
> fair use provisions of which education and research is a fair use I don't think people are debating fair use for education and research. It's the obvious corporate and for profit use which many see coming that is the issue. Typically, licensing structures were a solution for artists, but "AI" images seem to enable for-profit use by skirting around who created the image by implying the "AI" did, a willful ignorance of the way that the image was generated/outputted.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>I don't think people are debating fair use for education and research. It's the obvious corporate and for profit use Sounds like you are, because in copyright law there is not carve out for only non-profit education / research. Research and Education can be both profit and non-profit, copyright law does not distinguish between the 2, but it sounds like you claim is research can only ever be non-profit but given the entire computing sector in large part owes itself to commercial research (i.e Bell Labs) I find that a bit odd
  - beezlebroxxxxxx 4y ago
    Doesn't fair use make a distinction in the use though? Fair use in terms of commentary on something for instance is not the same as a company presenting marketing images, for example, as theirs in the selling of a product. If someone has legally protected their artwork, you can't just apply a photoshop layer to it and claim it is yours as fair use though, right? The issue seems to become almost more about provenance.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      >If someone has legally protected their artwork, you can't just apply a photoshop layer to it and claim it is yours as fair use though, right? That depends on what the layer was, and there is current cases heading to supreme court that have something similar to that so we may see however commentary is just one type of fair use and would not be a factor here, nor is anyone claiming the AI is reselling the original work. The claim is that copyright law prevents unauthorized use of a work in the training of AI, AI training could (and likely would) be treated as research, and the result of the research is a derivative work wholly separate from the original and created under fair use

Double_a_92 4y ago

The copyright to what exactly though? Imagine you're an artist that draws abstract paintings of trees. If an AI uses those, the results it produces will be generic abstract trees in your style. And since I doubt that you can copyright trees, you would have to copyright your specific style. But is that possible?

astrange 4y ago
It is not possible. And EU law (which is where these models were trained) has explicit allowances for machine learning anyway.

yreg 4y ago

Copyright doesn't protect your art against being copied (heh) by other artists. Artists have always been inspired by each other and copied each other's styles and ideas.