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When I was in Google Patent Litigation, I volunteered to work on Nest because it sounded cool. So I spent a couple days over there (they weren't on the Mountain

When I was in Google Patent Litigation, I volunteered to work on Nest because it sounded cool. So I spent a couple days over there (they weren't on the Mountain View campus) and sat in on some deposition preps. They were being sued by a Texas company called Allure, which was not a troll; they actually had a product that, at one time, you could have found on the Home Depot web site. I'm not going to reveal any legal secrets here, sorry. I did a ton of research on this space, and dove into their source code. Literally all over the world, companies have been working on this problem for decades. How you know when someone is coming home so you can turn on the heat or A/C, or how the utility company can do it for you: all that is very, very well covered. I don't think there's anything fundamentally new about the Nest, and I don't have one in my house. I actually stayed in someone's house that had two, so it's not as though it's completely foreign to me. I don't think that web-ifying your whole house is ever a good idea and I'm never going to do it. YMMV.

alsodumb 4y ago
You think there’s nothing fundamentally new about the Nest, but it arguably changed the home smart thermostat industry and people love it. People loved it even before Google acquired them so you can’t even argue it’s because of cost or marketing. They define do have something fundamentally new. I think it was exactly what was described in the video - easy installation, intuitive design, and right timing.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  I think you are looking at only what's available in the Home Depot. Connecting to your HVAC system is "fundamentally" simple and lots of companies have done it. "Home automation" is also not a new concept. X10 came out in 1975: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_automation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_automation What Nest had is consumer-friendliness, which I give them full credit for. Not surprising for Tony Fadell, who came out of Apple. Oh look, now he's into crypto: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/man-behind-the-ipod-launches-new-cryptocurrency-wallet/ar-AA14YWVa https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/man-behind-the-ipo... Maybe he'll bring his magic to that, too.
  - dctoedt 4y ago
    In the 1980s I spent several years defending Honeywell against some programmable thermostat patents filed in the late 1970s by one Burness C. Hall, who had aspirations to start a company. There was a ton of prior art out there. (The parties eventually settled.) https://patents.google.com/patent/US4200910A/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US4200910A/
- scarface74 4y ago
  I think you’re overestimating the popularity. Only 11 million were sold by 2011. https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/nest-says-it-has-sold-over-11-million-devices-since-2011/ https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/nest-says-it-has-sold-o...
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    How often do you change your thermostat? On its own that statistic means about 3% of Americans have bought one, which, when you consider that it's more expensive than the traditional kind, you only really need one thermostat per household (maybe two or three if your house is extra fancy and has multiple zones), only a homeowner would consider the purchase, and thermostats are exceptionally long-lived devices that rarely actually need to be replaced, that's pretty good.
    - ejstronge 4y ago
      Property managers likely buy many more than one per property - it’s not likely that 3% of Americans decided to buy a Nest if you consider that apartment buildings would buy these in bulk
      - emodendroket 4y ago
        I would consider property managers pretty unlikely to buy anything but the least expensive thermostat available.
- waynesonfire 4y ago
  just look at the alternatives, they're horrible. The Google Nest thermostat has revolutionized the thermostat ecosystem in the same way that the iPhone revolutionized the cellphone industry. I was getting quotes for some heating/cooling projects at home and, while discussing the control panels, I expected that Nest would be an option. I was surprised and found it comical when the salesperson claimed that the Nest control panel was not supported. This is an instant non-starter for me.
anonymousiam 4y ago
I've recently been wanting to change the three Nest (v3) thermostats in my house to something else. I'm looking for something that has a 1 degree (F not C) hysteresis, and can be controlled via WiFi, but not the cloud. (I don't like the idea of the government changing my temperature settings.) So far I haven't found anything, but I did find a few that allow local control when the cloud cannot be reached. It should be easy to put them in a separate guest network with no Internet gateway.
- saeranv 4y ago
  > I'm looking for something that has a 1 degree (F not C) hysteresis... Maybe not what you're looking for, but if you're just looking for a 1F degree lag in temperature change, you can also try just increasing the heat stored in your house's thermal mass. For example you could add something with high thermal mass (i.e. concrete) to the place you want higher thermal lag, and position it so it soaks up a lot of solar radiation. That'll buffer out your temperatures.
  - anonymousiam 4y ago
    Thanks for that. Probably not practical for my needs. The Nest "Smart Learning Thermostat" tries to save energy a little too aggressively for my taste. I think another brand would do better. In addition to the "Lag" being too wide, it also seems to have a low sample rate for the temperature. My master bedroom will often go to five degrees above the setpoint because the Nest will keep the heat on thinking it's still cold. It's really complete garbage. (I've measured the temperature separately to confirm it's a Nest issue.)
    - space_fountain 4y ago
      Often turning on and off heaters (and more especially heat pumps) is harder on them than keeping them running a bit longer? Were you sure it was actually wrong about the temperature and not just intent on not having to cycle on and off a ton?
      - 4y ago
ryandrake 4y ago
I wish they could solve the basic use case of "Let me set a temperature and thermostat keeps the house at that temperature." I tried several versions of Nest, and they all inevitably decided on their own that they were smarter than me and generated some weird schedule despite my never commanding them to operate on a schedule. I just want my thermostat to hold whatever temperature I set it at, until I set it at another temperature. This shouldn't take AI wizardry to achieve.
- wiml 4y ago
  It does seem like you could do that with a bimetallic coil and a little blob of mercury in a tube, like thermostats have done since the 1950s
- pdonis 4y ago
  > I just want my thermostat to hold whatever temperature I set it at, until I set it at another temperature. If it only takes one of heating or cooling to do this, not both, a standard "dumb" thermostat can of course do this just fine. Just set it to "cool" or "heat" mode and set a temperature. But of course you will need to change modes as the season changes (unless you live somewhere where only one mode is ever needed). If you want to not have to change modes when the season changes, it gets more complicated, because the simple control system in the standard thermostat is too dumb for that. For example, suppose you set your temperature to 75. The actual temperature rises to 76, above the setpoint, so your A/C comes on. It cools the house to 74 and then the thermostat shuts it off (you have to have some buffer so the A/C doesn't come on again almost immediately). Now the temperature is below the setpoint, so your heat comes on. It heats the house to 76 and then shuts off. Now the temperature is above the setpoint... You can see what's going on. From a pure design perspective, the right way to solve this problem is an outside temperature sensor (and probably a sun sensor as well since sunlight is a significant heat input to your house), so the system can predict what will happen when both cooling and heating are off. Given reliable sensors, the control algorithm is fairly simple (automatic climate control systems in cars already do it). I have never seen this in a house, though. I'm not sure why.
  - maxerickson 4y ago
emodendroket 4y ago
If the only feature "smart" thermostats had was that I could adjust the temperature with my phone from bed I would consider it money well spent.

alsodumb 4y ago

You think there’s nothing fundamentally new about the Nest, but it arguably changed the home smart thermostat industry and people love it. People loved it even before Google acquired them so you can’t even argue it’s because of cost or marketing. They define do have something fundamentally new. I think it was exactly what was described in the video - easy installation, intuitive design, and right timing.

AlbertCory 4y ago
I think you are looking at only what's available in the Home Depot. Connecting to your HVAC system is "fundamentally" simple and lots of companies have done it. "Home automation" is also not a new concept. X10 came out in 1975: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_automation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_automation What Nest had is consumer-friendliness, which I give them full credit for. Not surprising for Tony Fadell, who came out of Apple. Oh look, now he's into crypto: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/man-behind-the-ipod-launches-new-cryptocurrency-wallet/ar-AA14YWVa https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/man-behind-the-ipo... Maybe he'll bring his magic to that, too.
- dctoedt 4y ago
  In the 1980s I spent several years defending Honeywell against some programmable thermostat patents filed in the late 1970s by one Burness C. Hall, who had aspirations to start a company. There was a ton of prior art out there. (The parties eventually settled.) https://patents.google.com/patent/US4200910A/ https://patents.google.com/patent/US4200910A/
scarface74 4y ago
I think you’re overestimating the popularity. Only 11 million were sold by 2011. https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/nest-says-it-has-sold-over-11-million-devices-since-2011/ https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/nest-says-it-has-sold-o...
- emodendroket 4y ago
  How often do you change your thermostat? On its own that statistic means about 3% of Americans have bought one, which, when you consider that it's more expensive than the traditional kind, you only really need one thermostat per household (maybe two or three if your house is extra fancy and has multiple zones), only a homeowner would consider the purchase, and thermostats are exceptionally long-lived devices that rarely actually need to be replaced, that's pretty good.
  - ejstronge 4y ago
    Property managers likely buy many more than one per property - it’s not likely that 3% of Americans decided to buy a Nest if you consider that apartment buildings would buy these in bulk
    - emodendroket 4y ago
      I would consider property managers pretty unlikely to buy anything but the least expensive thermostat available.
waynesonfire 4y ago
just look at the alternatives, they're horrible. The Google Nest thermostat has revolutionized the thermostat ecosystem in the same way that the iPhone revolutionized the cellphone industry. I was getting quotes for some heating/cooling projects at home and, while discussing the control panels, I expected that Nest would be an option. I was surprised and found it comical when the salesperson claimed that the Nest control panel was not supported. This is an instant non-starter for me.

anonymousiam 4y ago

I've recently been wanting to change the three Nest (v3) thermostats in my house to something else. I'm looking for something that has a 1 degree (F not C) hysteresis, and can be controlled via WiFi, but not the cloud. (I don't like the idea of the government changing my temperature settings.) So far I haven't found anything, but I did find a few that allow local control when the cloud cannot be reached. It should be easy to put them in a separate guest network with no Internet gateway.

saeranv 4y ago
> I'm looking for something that has a 1 degree (F not C) hysteresis... Maybe not what you're looking for, but if you're just looking for a 1F degree lag in temperature change, you can also try just increasing the heat stored in your house's thermal mass. For example you could add something with high thermal mass (i.e. concrete) to the place you want higher thermal lag, and position it so it soaks up a lot of solar radiation. That'll buffer out your temperatures.
- anonymousiam 4y ago
  Thanks for that. Probably not practical for my needs. The Nest "Smart Learning Thermostat" tries to save energy a little too aggressively for my taste. I think another brand would do better. In addition to the "Lag" being too wide, it also seems to have a low sample rate for the temperature. My master bedroom will often go to five degrees above the setpoint because the Nest will keep the heat on thinking it's still cold. It's really complete garbage. (I've measured the temperature separately to confirm it's a Nest issue.)
  - space_fountain 4y ago
    Often turning on and off heaters (and more especially heat pumps) is harder on them than keeping them running a bit longer? Were you sure it was actually wrong about the temperature and not just intent on not having to cycle on and off a ton?
    - 4y ago

ryandrake 4y ago

I wish they could solve the basic use case of "Let me set a temperature and thermostat keeps the house at that temperature." I tried several versions of Nest, and they all inevitably decided on their own that they were smarter than me and generated some weird schedule despite my never commanding them to operate on a schedule. I just want my thermostat to hold whatever temperature I set it at, until I set it at another temperature. This shouldn't take AI wizardry to achieve.

wiml 4y ago
It does seem like you could do that with a bimetallic coil and a little blob of mercury in a tube, like thermostats have done since the 1950s
pdonis 4y ago
> I just want my thermostat to hold whatever temperature I set it at, until I set it at another temperature. If it only takes one of heating or cooling to do this, not both, a standard "dumb" thermostat can of course do this just fine. Just set it to "cool" or "heat" mode and set a temperature. But of course you will need to change modes as the season changes (unless you live somewhere where only one mode is ever needed). If you want to not have to change modes when the season changes, it gets more complicated, because the simple control system in the standard thermostat is too dumb for that. For example, suppose you set your temperature to 75. The actual temperature rises to 76, above the setpoint, so your A/C comes on. It cools the house to 74 and then the thermostat shuts it off (you have to have some buffer so the A/C doesn't come on again almost immediately). Now the temperature is below the setpoint, so your heat comes on. It heats the house to 76 and then shuts off. Now the temperature is above the setpoint... You can see what's going on. From a pure design perspective, the right way to solve this problem is an outside temperature sensor (and probably a sun sensor as well since sunlight is a significant heat input to your house), so the system can predict what will happen when both cooling and heating are off. Given reliable sensors, the control algorithm is fairly simple (automatic climate control systems in cars already do it). I have never seen this in a house, though. I'm not sure why.
- maxerickson 4y ago

emodendroket 4y ago

If the only feature "smart" thermostats had was that I could adjust the temperature with my phone from bed I would consider it money well spent.