6 ms·

>so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps Not a Tesla owner or fan but I have a question that's really bugging me now: Which cus

>so that the Germans could (try to) teach them how to fix the panel gaps Not a Tesla owner or fan but I have a question that's really bugging me now: Which customers really care about panel gaps? Do average joes, SUV driving soccer moms or suburban white collar workers go around with a ruler measuring their panel gaps with others like "yeah your Tesla is cool and all, but sorry, my Audi A5 has much tighter panel gaps which is what matters most you know"? When has the panel gap became "the benchmark" indicative of car quality beyond the body shell? Like, if the panel gaps are the only thing you can find wrong in a car, then it must be a really really good car, right? Is there any proven evidence that the panel gaps corelate to quality and reliability of the rest of the car, or is it just a myth of the car enthusiasts community that got spread around and went too far? I get it, some Tesla are unreliable and built poorly, but it's not because they have big panel gaps. The reverse is also true for many cars, so this isn't a rule. Sure, if you want to measure and compare panel gaps, then by all means go ahead and measure panel gaps, but please don't pretend they mean anything more than that, and that it's somehow an indicative for the car's overall quality and reliability, because so far there hasn't been any proof of this correlation.

pookeh 4y ago
The super rich buy supercars for the increase in their own perceived value (i.e wow look how rich this dude is) The average joe buys a car because of the value it gets them (because every dollar matters)
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Umm, except the cars the average joe buys depreciate in value, while the supercars the rich buy usually apreciate in value, kind of like art, so wouldn't it make more sense that panel gaps are more important for that market? Does having tighter panel gaps help with the resale value for the average joes?
  - shuckles 4y ago
    This isn’t true. Your average super car does not appreciate in value when you consider factors like maintenance and the fact that you have to buy a bunch of other garbage to even be put on the delivery list for a desirable car’s production. For example, actually buying a top spec 911 isn’t feasible if you don’t have a good relationship with your dealer. Notwithstanding the fact that the market for super cars is nothing like the market for Teslas or 5ers.
  - nluken 4y ago
    Supercars absolutely depreciate in value minus select limited releases (which holds true for non-supercars as well). Look at standard Lamborghini Gallardos, Ferrari F430s/458s, and Aston Martins of any model and you will see that some of these cars are worth less than half what their original buyers paid for them.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Fair point, that was a bad example on my end. Edited. But my point stands, that panel gap as a benchmark alone is no measure of quality or any other metric.
- epistasis 4y ago
  I think that most car buying is motivated by far far more than delivered value. There's so much status and image wrapped up in cars that thigh there are some who care little about the car, nearly everyone chooses something that fits their perception of themselves. The reason that there are so many super-expensive pickup trucks on the road is not because people are hauling around things that require a pickup, for example. And when combined with the face that pickup beds are becoming increasingly useless...
  - thfuran 4y ago
    What do you mean the beds are becoming useless?
    - epistasis 4y ago
      The height of the base of the bed, the height of the sides of the bed, and the lengths of beds are becoming more for show than for practical usage.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    Yes that's why car market isn't much practical.
tqi 4y ago
Aren't those cars (McLaren/Ferrari) also horribly uncomfortable and lacking in a lot of other amenities (like sound systems or tech)? It feels like those cars are a completely different category of good, and trying to measure them on the same scale is misguided. To me, panel gaps are a proxy for how much faith you have in your consistency and quality control.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >To me, panel gaps are a proxy for how much faith you have in your consistency and quality control. I beg to differ. Modern German cars might have panel gaps tighter than a nun's fanny, but their reliability, especially after warranty is over, is so awful than in no way can I say that they represent quality. Those quality cars went away in the late '80s early '90s when the engineers got replaced by the bean counters and cars became white goods with many critical parts outsourced to the lowest bidding contractor, that must look 'cool' in the showroom, but fail the second the warranty runs out, or many times even before that. To me, the panel gaps are a superficial metric of quality and prove nothing of substance that goes beyond body shell. Why don't we measure quality by how reliable a car is over time and how long it lasts? Surely that would prove good consistency and quality control on the manufacturer's side, no? Tight panel gaps only shows how much efort the manufacturer has put in the body, but says nothing about the quality and reliability of the electronics and mechanics, which is what really matters in a car for most people.
  - iancmceachern 4y ago
    Tesla was 19 out of 24 for reliability. BMW was 10th, in a recent survey. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/tesla-ranked-near-bottom-automaker-reliability-list-toyota-lexus-top-1650861%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/tesla-ranked-n...
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Does that prove a direct correlation between reliability and panel gaps, or could it be merely a coincidence? According to the article: > "the Audi E-Tron and Volkswagen ID.4 were singled out as being unreliable" So if Audi and VW are also unreliable then the panel gaps prove as a poor signal for reliability, which was my original point. Edit after your reply below: Sure, Tesla has poor reliability, but not because it has poor panel gaps. Those two can be completely disconnected. Just because they coincide sometimes, doesn't make this a rule of thumb like some car snobs try to convince you of. You can easily have cars with great panel gaps that are incredibly unreliable, and vice versa. Panel gaps mean nothing more than panel gaps.
qzx_pierri 4y ago
No one cares about panel gaps. A lot of people on HN despise Elon and become relentless pedants when discussing any of his products/initiatives.
- cardiffspaceman 4y ago
  If the panel gap is not "neat", which is not the same as "small", then it looks bad. I don't know if I could find a source, but it would probably be something like Forbes in the '80's: Lee Iacocca (of Chrysler) said that they learned from Japanese collaboration that if they made their gaps wider, then they appeared neater because they appeared parallel. And it was cheaper to make a wider gap, and it was easier for QA to pass the cars. Otherwise the cars would have to be whacked with mallets until the narrow gaps looked right, and that slows the line, and that indirectly adds cost. [This doesn't mean that the Japanese collaborators were making huge panel gaps on their own cars, it simply indicates that Iacocca('s people) got a certain idea from them]
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  I care very much about panel gaps. I can afford a Tesla won't risk buying it because that points to shitty QA.
- Grazester 4y ago
  I use to read about the panels gaps on the Tesla and thought so what? Then as more Tesla's started to show up on the road and I saw what they were talking about I finally get it. The cars looks like they were in an accident and had their body panels poorly repaired/reassembled.
- taylodl 4y ago
  You'll care about panel gaps when there's snow in your trunk or blowing around in your cabin. You also might care that your car looks like it was in an accident and repaired by an amateur. In a way though you're right - no one cared about panel gaps until Tesla came along because until then even the cheapest of the cheap manufacturers were able to get that right.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
prepend 4y ago
I care about panel gaps and one of the reasons I didn’t consider teslas when buying a new car is the build quality. Not sure how much this matters as Tesla’s sales are really high, but I think this basic stuff is important.
pandaman 4y ago
Re: panel gaps. People do tend to notice when they cars whistle and sport leaves, hair from the car washer's brush, and other debris on their body.
- dpkirchner 4y ago
  I've definitely noticed when Teslas (yes, plural) drive down the highway with their bumper cover hanging off, flapping in the wind.
Bhilai 4y ago
> Do average joes, SUV driving soccer moms or suburban white collar workers go around with a ruler measuring their panel gaps with others like "yeah your Tesla is cool and all, but sorry, my Audi A5 has much tighter panel gaps which is what matters most you know"? Average Joes and soccer moms in a typical suburban area cannot even afford Teslas and are extremely happy with their Odysseys, Seinnas and Pacificas. Even an Audi A5 is cheaper than a Model 3 in most cases and Audi's ride quality and cabin noise is extremely better than any Tesla I have ridden in. Audi interiors (though not as good as its other German competitors) beat Tesla by a mile.
nottorp 4y ago
> Which customers really care about panel gaps? Thing is, no one else has them. It's a real achievement for Tesla that the doors don't align with the body when every other car, no matter how cheap, manages to not do that. What's sold in Europe at least. So you'll forgive me that I don't trust the rest of the car either. Source: I've driven a friend's brand new Tesla. The rear right door didn't align with the body. Also I couldn't figure out how to manipulate the a/c, the turn signal stalk was too smart for me and kept turning the signals off at the wrong time * etc. Too bad about that engine. * I have a feeling their designers only ever drove on wide american streets that have only 90 degree intersections. For the life of me i couldn't get the turn signal to stay when the main road was going right and i was trying to get on a secondary road that was like 30 degrees to the left. Probably because i was basically going straight ahead from the point of view of the car at the start.
random314 4y ago
As per this thread "average discerning German car buyer". I don't know why the fuck everyone else should give a shitb about the opinions of the "average discerning German car buyer". Is he some kind of Nordic ideal car buyer everyone else should aspire towards?! Not once in my life has anyone talked about car panel gaps except on web forums when demonstrating Teslas or rubbish. I had one poster explain to me what is and what is not a luxury car. Alright man, good for you!
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  People may not use the term "panel gap" but "hey that Tesla looks like it has big gaps between the fender and door". Who the fuck cares what forums think when normal everyday people notice it too and may not know the word?
  - random314 4y ago
    I hate elon musk as much as anyone else, check my comment history. But literally no one has said that to me in the 4 years that I have owned a Tesla. Honestly, Who really cares? Perhaps I haven't met the discerning average German car buyer. You know what bugs me about my car? The fact that the range has dropped by 20% and Tesla support says there is no problem.

pookeh 4y ago

The super rich buy supercars for the increase in their own perceived value (i.e wow look how rich this dude is) The average joe buys a car because of the value it gets them (because every dollar matters)

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Umm, except the cars the average joe buys depreciate in value, while the supercars the rich buy usually apreciate in value, kind of like art, so wouldn't it make more sense that panel gaps are more important for that market? Does having tighter panel gaps help with the resale value for the average joes?
- shuckles 4y ago
  This isn’t true. Your average super car does not appreciate in value when you consider factors like maintenance and the fact that you have to buy a bunch of other garbage to even be put on the delivery list for a desirable car’s production. For example, actually buying a top spec 911 isn’t feasible if you don’t have a good relationship with your dealer. Notwithstanding the fact that the market for super cars is nothing like the market for Teslas or 5ers.
- nluken 4y ago
  Supercars absolutely depreciate in value minus select limited releases (which holds true for non-supercars as well). Look at standard Lamborghini Gallardos, Ferrari F430s/458s, and Aston Martins of any model and you will see that some of these cars are worth less than half what their original buyers paid for them.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Fair point, that was a bad example on my end. Edited. But my point stands, that panel gap as a benchmark alone is no measure of quality or any other metric.
epistasis 4y ago
I think that most car buying is motivated by far far more than delivered value. There's so much status and image wrapped up in cars that thigh there are some who care little about the car, nearly everyone chooses something that fits their perception of themselves. The reason that there are so many super-expensive pickup trucks on the road is not because people are hauling around things that require a pickup, for example. And when combined with the face that pickup beds are becoming increasingly useless...
- thfuran 4y ago
  What do you mean the beds are becoming useless?
  - epistasis 4y ago
    The height of the base of the bed, the height of the sides of the bed, and the lengths of beds are becoming more for show than for practical usage.
- fomine3 4y ago
  Yes that's why car market isn't much practical.

tqi 4y ago

Aren't those cars (McLaren/Ferrari) also horribly uncomfortable and lacking in a lot of other amenities (like sound systems or tech)? It feels like those cars are a completely different category of good, and trying to measure them on the same scale is misguided. To me, panel gaps are a proxy for how much faith you have in your consistency and quality control.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>To me, panel gaps are a proxy for how much faith you have in your consistency and quality control. I beg to differ. Modern German cars might have panel gaps tighter than a nun's fanny, but their reliability, especially after warranty is over, is so awful than in no way can I say that they represent quality. Those quality cars went away in the late '80s early '90s when the engineers got replaced by the bean counters and cars became white goods with many critical parts outsourced to the lowest bidding contractor, that must look 'cool' in the showroom, but fail the second the warranty runs out, or many times even before that. To me, the panel gaps are a superficial metric of quality and prove nothing of substance that goes beyond body shell. Why don't we measure quality by how reliable a car is over time and how long it lasts? Surely that would prove good consistency and quality control on the manufacturer's side, no? Tight panel gaps only shows how much efort the manufacturer has put in the body, but says nothing about the quality and reliability of the electronics and mechanics, which is what really matters in a car for most people.
- iancmceachern 4y ago
  Tesla was 19 out of 24 for reliability. BMW was 10th, in a recent survey. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/tesla-ranked-near-bottom-automaker-reliability-list-toyota-lexus-top-1650861%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/tesla-ranked-n...
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Does that prove a direct correlation between reliability and panel gaps, or could it be merely a coincidence? According to the article: > "the Audi E-Tron and Volkswagen ID.4 were singled out as being unreliable" So if Audi and VW are also unreliable then the panel gaps prove as a poor signal for reliability, which was my original point. Edit after your reply below: Sure, Tesla has poor reliability, but not because it has poor panel gaps. Those two can be completely disconnected. Just because they coincide sometimes, doesn't make this a rule of thumb like some car snobs try to convince you of. You can easily have cars with great panel gaps that are incredibly unreliable, and vice versa. Panel gaps mean nothing more than panel gaps.

qzx_pierri 4y ago

No one cares about panel gaps. A lot of people on HN despise Elon and become relentless pedants when discussing any of his products/initiatives.

cardiffspaceman 4y ago
If the panel gap is not "neat", which is not the same as "small", then it looks bad. I don't know if I could find a source, but it would probably be something like Forbes in the '80's: Lee Iacocca (of Chrysler) said that they learned from Japanese collaboration that if they made their gaps wider, then they appeared neater because they appeared parallel. And it was cheaper to make a wider gap, and it was easier for QA to pass the cars. Otherwise the cars would have to be whacked with mallets until the narrow gaps looked right, and that slows the line, and that indirectly adds cost. [This doesn't mean that the Japanese collaborators were making huge panel gaps on their own cars, it simply indicates that Iacocca('s people) got a certain idea from them]
bsagdiyev 4y ago
I care very much about panel gaps. I can afford a Tesla won't risk buying it because that points to shitty QA.
Grazester 4y ago
I use to read about the panels gaps on the Tesla and thought so what? Then as more Tesla's started to show up on the road and I saw what they were talking about I finally get it. The cars looks like they were in an accident and had their body panels poorly repaired/reassembled.
taylodl 4y ago
You'll care about panel gaps when there's snow in your trunk or blowing around in your cabin. You also might care that your car looks like it was in an accident and repaired by an amateur. In a way though you're right - no one cared about panel gaps until Tesla came along because until then even the cheapest of the cheap manufacturers were able to get that right.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

prepend 4y ago

I care about panel gaps and one of the reasons I didn’t consider teslas when buying a new car is the build quality. Not sure how much this matters as Tesla’s sales are really high, but I think this basic stuff is important.

pandaman 4y ago

Re: panel gaps. People do tend to notice when they cars whistle and sport leaves, hair from the car washer's brush, and other debris on their body.

dpkirchner 4y ago
I've definitely noticed when Teslas (yes, plural) drive down the highway with their bumper cover hanging off, flapping in the wind.

Bhilai 4y ago

> Do average joes, SUV driving soccer moms or suburban white collar workers go around with a ruler measuring their panel gaps with others like "yeah your Tesla is cool and all, but sorry, my Audi A5 has much tighter panel gaps which is what matters most you know"? Average Joes and soccer moms in a typical suburban area cannot even afford Teslas and are extremely happy with their Odysseys, Seinnas and Pacificas. Even an Audi A5 is cheaper than a Model 3 in most cases and Audi's ride quality and cabin noise is extremely better than any Tesla I have ridden in. Audi interiors (though not as good as its other German competitors) beat Tesla by a mile.

nottorp 4y ago

> Which customers really care about panel gaps? Thing is, no one else has them. It's a real achievement for Tesla that the doors don't align with the body when every other car, no matter how cheap, manages to not do that. What's sold in Europe at least. So you'll forgive me that I don't trust the rest of the car either. Source: I've driven a friend's brand new Tesla. The rear right door didn't align with the body. Also I couldn't figure out how to manipulate the a/c, the turn signal stalk was too smart for me and kept turning the signals off at the wrong time * etc. Too bad about that engine. * I have a feeling their designers only ever drove on wide american streets that have only 90 degree intersections. For the life of me i couldn't get the turn signal to stay when the main road was going right and i was trying to get on a secondary road that was like 30 degrees to the left. Probably because i was basically going straight ahead from the point of view of the car at the start.

random314 4y ago

As per this thread "average discerning German car buyer". I don't know why the fuck everyone else should give a shitb about the opinions of the "average discerning German car buyer". Is he some kind of Nordic ideal car buyer everyone else should aspire towards?! Not once in my life has anyone talked about car panel gaps except on web forums when demonstrating Teslas or rubbish. I had one poster explain to me what is and what is not a luxury car. Alright man, good for you!

bsagdiyev 4y ago
People may not use the term "panel gap" but "hey that Tesla looks like it has big gaps between the fender and door". Who the fuck cares what forums think when normal everyday people notice it too and may not know the word?
- random314 4y ago
  I hate elon musk as much as anyone else, check my comment history. But literally no one has said that to me in the 4 years that I have owned a Tesla. Honestly, Who really cares? Perhaps I haven't met the discerning average German car buyer. You know what bugs me about my car? The fact that the range has dropped by 20% and Tesla support says there is no problem.