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I agree that iOS Safari's popularity is the only thing currently keeping the web an open market. But I'm not too concerned that this move will break that situat

by cal85 4y ago

I agree that iOS Safari's popularity is the only thing currently keeping the web an open market. But I'm not too concerned that this move will break that situation. Most iPhone users just use the stock browser and don't know or care what rendering engine it is. Maybe Chrome for iOS gets a bit better due to this change, attracting a few more users, but I can't see it changing the numbers much.

blibble 4y ago
> Most iPhone users just use the stock browser and don't know or care what rendering engine it is. Google will likely turn on the popups with "BETTER ON CHROME! TRY CHROME NOW!" for ios users once it's possible
acdha 4y ago
How'd that work for Microsoft Edge? Firefox usage tanked when Google started heavily promoting Chrome on search, Gmail, Youtube, Docs, etc. and I would be shocked if this went through and every Google app didn't start telling people that they should install Chrome or certain features were being held back for Chrome users.
- someNameIG 4y ago
  Iirc on macOS Safari is still the most popular, with over 50% using it. It's no where near as dominant as Safari is on iOS but significantly more than Edge is on Windows. I like Safari too, so even with this change I'll keep using it on my Apple devices.
- cal85 4y ago
  I'm confused, how does this move affect Google's ability to promote their own iOS Chrome app to Safari iOS users? They already have that ability.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Chrome on iOS uses the same WebKit engine as Safari. Right now, if someone at Google wants to ship a web API they need to work with Apple and, to a lesser extent, Mozilla to implement it. If they could tell people to use Blink on iOS, they'd have the ability to ship the update and blow off attempts to change the code in the standardization process or even standardize at all because 95% of their users would be running code which they can arbitrarily update.
ginko 4y ago
Safari is just a Webkit skin like Chrome is. The only independent browser is Firefox.
- ginko 4y ago
  why the downvotes? Both Safari and Chrome are based on KHTML. There's literally no difference between them. They might have diverged technically but they're still both not really FOSS software.
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    Literally no difference is a wildly wrong and simplistic statement to make. There are vast differences.
    - ginko 4y ago
      They're both LGPL so they're not truly Free.
      - acdha 4y ago
        That’s a religious debate. Most open source developers do not agree so if you want to be provocative about it, accept the downvotes with grace.
dnissley 4y ago
It's really a stretch to call something that's literally the only option "popular". But I agree, rendering engine is not enough to move any real needle. New browsers need to be able to integrate features that ios doesn't support currently that require hooking into the operating system like PWAs.
- samtheprogram 4y ago
  Missing from this conversation: - other browsers exist for iOS, and users seem not to care that much for the alternatives, but… - if other engines are permitted, then user-facing differentiators like extensions will make their way to competing browsers on iOS. Outside of PWAs, I can’t think of many other features other than maybe arbitrary file upload that requires more hooks into the OS (as opposed to greater control of the browser engine). Genuinely interested in hearing/thinking of more, if you have any.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Other browsers exist but those are apps using the same WebKit rendering engine, which means web developers have to support that. If Blink could run natively, you’d see more promotion on Google properties to change that.
- alwillis 4y ago
  > It's really a stretch to call something that's literally the only option "popular". It’s not a stretch; it’s silly to say otherwise. Regardless of the rendering engine and the ability to make a 3rd-party browser the default on iOS which has been a thing for a few years now, Safari is the most popular browser on iOS and iOS runs on something like 1.5+ billion devices worldwide. Normies don’t know and don’t care about the rendering engine when they use Firefox, Brave, Chrome, etc. on iOS and yet those browsers probably have single digit installed base on iOS. And nothing would meaningfully change even if Firefox and Chrome ran natively on iOS.
  - dnissley 4y ago
    I agree that rendering engine alone won't move the needle. Users may care about features though: PWAs and extensions that don't need to go through the app store review process are the big ones. Example: "Firefox has an extension that allows you to download videos from youtube -- it's way better than Safari."

by cal85 4y ago

blibble 4y ago

> Most iPhone users just use the stock browser and don't know or care what rendering engine it is. Google will likely turn on the popups with "BETTER ON CHROME! TRY CHROME NOW!" for ios users once it's possible

acdha 4y ago

How'd that work for Microsoft Edge? Firefox usage tanked when Google started heavily promoting Chrome on search, Gmail, Youtube, Docs, etc. and I would be shocked if this went through and every Google app didn't start telling people that they should install Chrome or certain features were being held back for Chrome users.

someNameIG 4y ago
Iirc on macOS Safari is still the most popular, with over 50% using it. It's no where near as dominant as Safari is on iOS but significantly more than Edge is on Windows. I like Safari too, so even with this change I'll keep using it on my Apple devices.
cal85 4y ago
I'm confused, how does this move affect Google's ability to promote their own iOS Chrome app to Safari iOS users? They already have that ability.
- acdha 4y ago
  Chrome on iOS uses the same WebKit engine as Safari. Right now, if someone at Google wants to ship a web API they need to work with Apple and, to a lesser extent, Mozilla to implement it. If they could tell people to use Blink on iOS, they'd have the ability to ship the update and blow off attempts to change the code in the standardization process or even standardize at all because 95% of their users would be running code which they can arbitrarily update.

ginko 4y ago

Safari is just a Webkit skin like Chrome is. The only independent browser is Firefox.

ginko 4y ago
why the downvotes? Both Safari and Chrome are based on KHTML. There's literally no difference between them. They might have diverged technically but they're still both not really FOSS software.
- imwillofficial 4y ago
  Literally no difference is a wildly wrong and simplistic statement to make. There are vast differences.
  - ginko 4y ago
    They're both LGPL so they're not truly Free.
    - acdha 4y ago
      That’s a religious debate. Most open source developers do not agree so if you want to be provocative about it, accept the downvotes with grace.

dnissley 4y ago

It's really a stretch to call something that's literally the only option "popular". But I agree, rendering engine is not enough to move any real needle. New browsers need to be able to integrate features that ios doesn't support currently that require hooking into the operating system like PWAs.

samtheprogram 4y ago
Missing from this conversation: - other browsers exist for iOS, and users seem not to care that much for the alternatives, but… - if other engines are permitted, then user-facing differentiators like extensions will make their way to competing browsers on iOS. Outside of PWAs, I can’t think of many other features other than maybe arbitrary file upload that requires more hooks into the OS (as opposed to greater control of the browser engine). Genuinely interested in hearing/thinking of more, if you have any.
- acdha 4y ago
  Other browsers exist but those are apps using the same WebKit rendering engine, which means web developers have to support that. If Blink could run natively, you’d see more promotion on Google properties to change that.
alwillis 4y ago
> It's really a stretch to call something that's literally the only option "popular". It’s not a stretch; it’s silly to say otherwise. Regardless of the rendering engine and the ability to make a 3rd-party browser the default on iOS which has been a thing for a few years now, Safari is the most popular browser on iOS and iOS runs on something like 1.5+ billion devices worldwide. Normies don’t know and don’t care about the rendering engine when they use Firefox, Brave, Chrome, etc. on iOS and yet those browsers probably have single digit installed base on iOS. And nothing would meaningfully change even if Firefox and Chrome ran natively on iOS.
- dnissley 4y ago
  I agree that rendering engine alone won't move the needle. Users may care about features though: PWAs and extensions that don't need to go through the app store review process are the big ones. Example: "Firefox has an extension that allows you to download videos from youtube -- it's way better than Safari."