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Facebook allowed them to disseminate information leading to his murder. You can theorize all day about whether you think it would have happened anyways, but tha

by tsol 4y ago

Facebook allowed them to disseminate information leading to his murder. You can theorize all day about whether you think it would have happened anyways, but that doesn't really add any facts to the case.

gretch 4y ago
The concept of a controlled experiment is quite important to scientific discovery and obtaining new knowledge. What you just said is pretty equivalent to saying: When the moon is full, there is more murder. Therefore full moons must be contributing to violence. No need to theorize what happened when there's not a full moon, that's not adding any facts to the case!
- jeromegv 4y ago
  His fucking address and call for murder was shared 50,000 times. And here you are, parroting the idea of controlled experiment and wanting to discuss scientific discovery. This is someone's life we are talking about. Clearly it is a failure in moderation policy. This type of thing would not have happened in the US.
  - saint_fiasco 4y ago
    > This type of thing would not have happened in the US That's because the real police would intervene, not because murderers are afraid of social media moderators. That said, I do believe that if Ethiopian law enforcement can't (won't?) handle their murderous mobs, they should censor their social media until they can figure out what is going on. And foreign social media companies should cooperate with them. But the initiative has to come from Ethiopia.
  - gretch 4y ago
    Your saying that I’m missing an obvious point about the 50k shares, and I think your missing the even more obvious backdrop that this took place amidst a civil war! Is this the only guy that died in this civil war? Did fb cause the civil war?
  - PeterisP 4y ago
    > His fucking address and call for murder was shared 50,000 times. That still doesn't mean that the medium for sharing caused the murder or is responsible for it. This is one of cases where intent and/or explicit action is required for both moral and legal culpablity - simply doing nothing may be an asshole thing to do, but it doesn't make you an accomplice in a crime, and if you do try assisting by moderating but are bad at it and fail sometimes, that's definitely not being an accomplice, because there is no duty to be perfect at that; a failure in moderation policy is just that - a failure in moderation policy, not becoming co-guilty of the too-slowly-moderated thing unless that post was kept up by someone with the explicit intent to facilitate that murder. I'd say that every single one of the 50,000 sharers is each more culpable than Meta. Like, we have serious precedent for propagandists considered liable for inciting murderous hatred like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Nahimana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Nahimana and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bosco_Barayagwiza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bosco_Barayagwiza , but the bar there is met because they actively and intentionally made the propaganda; on the other hand, all the many people who (for example) kept the radios running and/or could have somehow stopped the propagandists but didn't - well, they are not liable for the crime.
subradios 4y ago
So a US based company, operating under US law, is responsible to use its US based platform and employees to decide how users in a totally different country use the internet? If you're gonna support the British Empire, fine, be my guest, but be aware that this is pretty close to noblest oblige views of colonialim
- joshuaissac 4y ago
  > So a US based company, operating under US law When Facebook operates in Ethiopia, it is expected to follow Ethiopian law. > If you're gonna support the British Empire [...] this is pretty close to noblest oblige views of colonialim The British Empire has forced subjugated countries to recognise a concept of extraterritoriality for British merchants operating in those countries, where they would not be subjected to local laws. But the US has not made such an agreement with Ethiopia about Facebook. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritoriality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritoriality
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    So Qatar and other Middle Eastern countries could make Facebook either withdraw from the region or ban all expressions of homosexuality worldwide? Facebook can, and should, tell those countries to fuck off and build their own Great Firewall if they want to.
    - joshuaissac 4y ago
      Facebook is being sued for allowing its platform to be used to incite and facilitate murders in Ethiopia. If they want to do the same in another country where it is legal, Ethiopian law does not forbid them. Similarly, EU laws that restrict the sale of firearms do not apply to Facebook Marketplace in the US, only to the EU. If they allow firearms to be sold on Facebook Marketplace in the EU, they will face prosecution, even though they are based in the US. Facebook can decide to ignore local laws, in the Middle East or anywhere else, whether they apply locally or globally, but if they ignore laws in a jurisdiction where they have assets or revenue, then legal judgements against them can be enforced. That is what is happening here.

by tsol 4y ago

gretch 4y ago

The concept of a controlled experiment is quite important to scientific discovery and obtaining new knowledge. What you just said is pretty equivalent to saying: When the moon is full, there is more murder. Therefore full moons must be contributing to violence. No need to theorize what happened when there's not a full moon, that's not adding any facts to the case!

jeromegv 4y ago
His fucking address and call for murder was shared 50,000 times. And here you are, parroting the idea of controlled experiment and wanting to discuss scientific discovery. This is someone's life we are talking about. Clearly it is a failure in moderation policy. This type of thing would not have happened in the US.
- saint_fiasco 4y ago
  > This type of thing would not have happened in the US That's because the real police would intervene, not because murderers are afraid of social media moderators. That said, I do believe that if Ethiopian law enforcement can't (won't?) handle their murderous mobs, they should censor their social media until they can figure out what is going on. And foreign social media companies should cooperate with them. But the initiative has to come from Ethiopia.
- gretch 4y ago
  Your saying that I’m missing an obvious point about the 50k shares, and I think your missing the even more obvious backdrop that this took place amidst a civil war! Is this the only guy that died in this civil war? Did fb cause the civil war?
- PeterisP 4y ago
  > His fucking address and call for murder was shared 50,000 times. That still doesn't mean that the medium for sharing caused the murder or is responsible for it. This is one of cases where intent and/or explicit action is required for both moral and legal culpablity - simply doing nothing may be an asshole thing to do, but it doesn't make you an accomplice in a crime, and if you do try assisting by moderating but are bad at it and fail sometimes, that's definitely not being an accomplice, because there is no duty to be perfect at that; a failure in moderation policy is just that - a failure in moderation policy, not becoming co-guilty of the too-slowly-moderated thing unless that post was kept up by someone with the explicit intent to facilitate that murder. I'd say that every single one of the 50,000 sharers is each more culpable than Meta. Like, we have serious precedent for propagandists considered liable for inciting murderous hatred like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Nahimana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Nahimana and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bosco_Barayagwiza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bosco_Barayagwiza , but the bar there is met because they actively and intentionally made the propaganda; on the other hand, all the many people who (for example) kept the radios running and/or could have somehow stopped the propagandists but didn't - well, they are not liable for the crime.

subradios 4y ago

So a US based company, operating under US law, is responsible to use its US based platform and employees to decide how users in a totally different country use the internet? If you're gonna support the British Empire, fine, be my guest, but be aware that this is pretty close to noblest oblige views of colonialim

joshuaissac 4y ago
> So a US based company, operating under US law When Facebook operates in Ethiopia, it is expected to follow Ethiopian law. > If you're gonna support the British Empire [...] this is pretty close to noblest oblige views of colonialim The British Empire has forced subjugated countries to recognise a concept of extraterritoriality for British merchants operating in those countries, where they would not be subjected to local laws. But the US has not made such an agreement with Ethiopia about Facebook. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritoriality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritoriality
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  So Qatar and other Middle Eastern countries could make Facebook either withdraw from the region or ban all expressions of homosexuality worldwide? Facebook can, and should, tell those countries to fuck off and build their own Great Firewall if they want to.
  - joshuaissac 4y ago
    Facebook is being sued for allowing its platform to be used to incite and facilitate murders in Ethiopia. If they want to do the same in another country where it is legal, Ethiopian law does not forbid them. Similarly, EU laws that restrict the sale of firearms do not apply to Facebook Marketplace in the US, only to the EU. If they allow firearms to be sold on Facebook Marketplace in the EU, they will face prosecution, even though they are based in the US. Facebook can decide to ignore local laws, in the Middle East or anywhere else, whether they apply locally or globally, but if they ignore laws in a jurisdiction where they have assets or revenue, then legal judgements against them can be enforced. That is what is happening here.