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>I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I recently swi

>I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I recently switched to an iPhone because I want everything to "just work" and not deal with the android crap- and I honestly couldn't be happier. >Not all iPhone users are the same Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works.

sushisource 4y ago
How is this a meaningful retort to the other commenter? They get to use FF on iOS, you get to keep using Safari and every other stock app. What exactly is the problem there besides what comes across as some weird form of "keep the dirty Android users away from my iPhone"?
jchw 4y ago
Well, Sometimes I don't like democrats. I don't like all policies backed by democratic candidates, and I definitely have problems with the DNC. However, that doesn't mean I want to vote Republican, or Green Party, or Libertarian. Please don't get caught up in taking the analogy to it's logical extreme (or read it literally, because it's not literal.) The point is that there is no perfect option on the market for me. I don't have a single criteria for the perfect smartphone. I don't just want a device that boots Firefox well. And in fact, Apple, much to the chagrin of those of us who hate Apple, makes some of the best computer and phone hardware on the planet. It's not even a contest, in some cases. Do you use a macOS computer by chance? Do you feel like the Asahi Linux effort is harming your ability to use and enjoy the Mac computer? Does it cause problems for you, or make things no longer "just work", when someone is allowed to install Firefox? > Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I do. They're not perfect either. Google Pixel phones are pretty good, but I doubt I need to expound upon the problems of them for you. You pretty much seem to get it given the next few lines. (Not trying to be condescending here.) > Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. Most users of all mass-market devices are like this, be it Samsung Galaxy, Google Pixel or iPhone. It's not really to your point, though, because iPhone has bred perhaps one of the most interesting communities through people's sheer desires to break it apart and customize it. I'm sure you're aware of the rich history of jailbreaking iPhones; and while a small percent of users, (just like Android rooting,) those jailbreaks get nontrivial huge amounts of attention. It's basically international news when a new untethered jailbreak kit shows up, and undoubtedly millions of users use them. Apple may very well not want these users, but Apple wants to make the world's best phone. Well, you may not want the consumer you get, but that's the symmetry of this all. There's a give and a take.
indymike 4y ago
>I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? This is turning something that should be a gradient into a zero-sum. Features like side load dot not make existing features stop working. Allowing other browsers doesn't make iPhone just not work. > they just want something that works. The reason people are interested in side loading apps and opening up iOS is there are quite a few people like me that drop $1000 on an iPhone, and it does not just work for me when it really should work better than a $100 Android. The only difference seems to be anti-me features that protect Apple's monopoly on the app store.
JustSomeNobody 4y ago
> Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. None of that will change.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  This doesn't seem possible. Whatever changes Apple will have to make to support drop-in replacements for Siri, a complete elimination of certification requirements for Gatekeeper, and so on, as listed in this very thread, will absolutely disrupt the status quo and make things more complex. I hope that Apple will strive to make it so the defaults match the current reality, but just like soldered-in batteries mean more capacity without the need for connectors, so too do baked-in defaults mean more stability without the need to pluggability. It may not be the end of the world, but it is a pretty drastic change that people are dismissing as "allow alternate browser engines," when it's so much more than that.
  - jchw 4y ago
    It's true that there is nonzero engineering effort to make some of these things happen, but in my opinion, a lot of the problem is self-inflicted. I mean... Apple also eventually decided to support third-party keyboards. Was it a bit buggy? Absolutely. Did it obliterate quick type and make all typing buggy for all users? No. As far as I can guess, they actually special-cased third party keyboards. Fine by me. Probably fine by regulators as long as there's nothing malicious about it. Truth be told, I don't care about alternate voice assistants. That said, today, you can get almost all of Google Assistant on an iPhone just fine, the only thing it really can't do is well, respond to your voice passively and do things on the lock screen. Exactly how much power they're willing to expose I'm not sure, but it doesn't really seem like they have to give everyone access to the same internal APIs they use so as long as the APIs they provide give enough feature parity. I think the sky is not falling.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      Great example: keyboards are definitely more complicated and fiddly since the introduction of multiple keyboards. Absolutely necessary to support multiple countries, but the tradeoff is real. The sky isn't falling by any means, but iOS is absolutely going to get more complicated as a result of these changes, even for people who stick with the defaults, as I likely will in most or all cases. And of course I wonder: will Apple be releasing Siri for Android? Presumably Google would be required to allow for it.

sushisource 4y ago

How is this a meaningful retort to the other commenter? They get to use FF on iOS, you get to keep using Safari and every other stock app. What exactly is the problem there besides what comes across as some weird form of "keep the dirty Android users away from my iPhone"?

jchw 4y ago

Well, Sometimes I don't like democrats. I don't like all policies backed by democratic candidates, and I definitely have problems with the DNC. However, that doesn't mean I want to vote Republican, or Green Party, or Libertarian. Please don't get caught up in taking the analogy to it's logical extreme (or read it literally, because it's not literal.) The point is that there is no perfect option on the market for me. I don't have a single criteria for the perfect smartphone. I don't just want a device that boots Firefox well. And in fact, Apple, much to the chagrin of those of us who hate Apple, makes some of the best computer and phone hardware on the planet. It's not even a contest, in some cases. Do you use a macOS computer by chance? Do you feel like the Asahi Linux effort is harming your ability to use and enjoy the Mac computer? Does it cause problems for you, or make things no longer "just work", when someone is allowed to install Firefox? > Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I do. They're not perfect either. Google Pixel phones are pretty good, but I doubt I need to expound upon the problems of them for you. You pretty much seem to get it given the next few lines. (Not trying to be condescending here.) > Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. Most users of all mass-market devices are like this, be it Samsung Galaxy, Google Pixel or iPhone. It's not really to your point, though, because iPhone has bred perhaps one of the most interesting communities through people's sheer desires to break it apart and customize it. I'm sure you're aware of the rich history of jailbreaking iPhones; and while a small percent of users, (just like Android rooting,) those jailbreaks get nontrivial huge amounts of attention. It's basically international news when a new untethered jailbreak kit shows up, and undoubtedly millions of users use them. Apple may very well not want these users, but Apple wants to make the world's best phone. Well, you may not want the consumer you get, but that's the symmetry of this all. There's a give and a take.

indymike 4y ago

>I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? This is turning something that should be a gradient into a zero-sum. Features like side load dot not make existing features stop working. Allowing other browsers doesn't make iPhone just not work. > they just want something that works. The reason people are interested in side loading apps and opening up iOS is there are quite a few people like me that drop $1000 on an iPhone, and it does not just work for me when it really should work better than a $100 Android. The only difference seems to be anti-me features that protect Apple's monopoly on the app store.

JustSomeNobody 4y ago

> Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. None of that will change.

pwinnski 4y ago
This doesn't seem possible. Whatever changes Apple will have to make to support drop-in replacements for Siri, a complete elimination of certification requirements for Gatekeeper, and so on, as listed in this very thread, will absolutely disrupt the status quo and make things more complex. I hope that Apple will strive to make it so the defaults match the current reality, but just like soldered-in batteries mean more capacity without the need for connectors, so too do baked-in defaults mean more stability without the need to pluggability. It may not be the end of the world, but it is a pretty drastic change that people are dismissing as "allow alternate browser engines," when it's so much more than that.
- jchw 4y ago
  It's true that there is nonzero engineering effort to make some of these things happen, but in my opinion, a lot of the problem is self-inflicted. I mean... Apple also eventually decided to support third-party keyboards. Was it a bit buggy? Absolutely. Did it obliterate quick type and make all typing buggy for all users? No. As far as I can guess, they actually special-cased third party keyboards. Fine by me. Probably fine by regulators as long as there's nothing malicious about it. Truth be told, I don't care about alternate voice assistants. That said, today, you can get almost all of Google Assistant on an iPhone just fine, the only thing it really can't do is well, respond to your voice passively and do things on the lock screen. Exactly how much power they're willing to expose I'm not sure, but it doesn't really seem like they have to give everyone access to the same internal APIs they use so as long as the APIs they provide give enough feature parity. I think the sky is not falling.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    Great example: keyboards are definitely more complicated and fiddly since the introduction of multiple keyboards. Absolutely necessary to support multiple countries, but the tradeoff is real. The sky isn't falling by any means, but iOS is absolutely going to get more complicated as a result of these changes, even for people who stick with the defaults, as I likely will in most or all cases. And of course I wonder: will Apple be releasing Siri for Android? Presumably Google would be required to allow for it.