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If it's for your career: React + (Next or Remix). Maybe Angular or Vue if the specific company you want uses it If it's for yourself: Svelte. Amazing community

by culi 4y ago

If it's for your career: React + (Next or Remix). Maybe Angular or Vue if the specific company you want uses it If it's for yourself: Svelte. Amazing community, very likely to be here in 5 years, but I don't think it's been proven to work at large scales yet. If you want to twist everything upside down and see the full potential of what front-end dev work could be: Qwik or Elm (imho)

WXLCKNO 4y ago
What would be an example of large scale for a front-end app or site?
- culi 4y ago
  complex dashboards like CircleCI or client portals like maybe your bank or health insurance portal many pages and lots of functionality with lots of data floating around like Reddit, Twitter literally everything/anything like Facebook, GitHub, etc For simple apps, I'd go with a PWA if possible. For single, mostly informational, pages you usually just need a static site. For a company blog, some of these tools could be used to make the frontend for a CMS, but you can also just get away with Wordpress, Squarespace, etc most of the time unless they want some really custom functionality. Then there's also micro-frontends and Astro and other related tools if you're trying to do a lot of different things and wanna mix and match different solutions to different problems
  - sesm 4y ago
    BTW, is CircleCI still using ClojureScript + React or they've changed their stack?
  - kevinak 4y ago
    Maybe https://beta.music.apple.com/ https://beta.music.apple.com/ qualifies? =)
    - hit8run 4y ago
      What is apple doing there? They mix ember with svelte? o_O
  - roci89 4y ago
    Not huge but couchbase use svelte for their online offering https://cloud.couchbase.com/sign-up https://cloud.couchbase.com/sign-up It's got some cool db/sql stuff in there
miohtama 4y ago
Svelte will be also the career choice in couple of years, like Angular was the career choice when React launched (although they have only 3 years between them).
- culi 4y ago
  and before angular was jquery. But I do think there's quite a big difference between React and Angular. Angular never reached the level of marketshare that React has even if it was close. And even when it was close it was only for a few years. React has been the standard for nearly a decade now. And React has been much more explicit about growing its ecosystem whereas Angular has much fewer 3rd party plugins/tools. In addition to all that, Svelte has technically been around since 2016. Even if we cheat and say it only really started getting attention in 2018-2020, it has still been rising slower than Vue did when it launched. In the latest StackOverflow survey (2022), Svelte still hasn't even surpassed the 5% threshold for how many developers have used it. By pretty much every metric,[^0] svelte is a tiny community still. A darling of the web dev community for sure, but has not yet gained the confidence of commercial products. Perhaps this has actually been good for Svelte and its development. It definitely seems like it's heading towards much wider adoption so I guess we'll see it tested soon enough [^0]: https://gist.github.com/tkrotoff/b1caa4c3a185629299ec234d2314e190 https://gist.github.com/tkrotoff/b1caa4c3a185629299ec234d231...
  - pcthrowaway 4y ago
    I'm surprised that 5% of developers have used svelte. That seems like a lot, I was under the impression that webdevs are not the majority of software developers.
    - culi 4y ago
      In 2022: React.js 42.62%, Angular 20.39%, Vue.js 18.82%, Angular.js 8.99%, Svelte 4.58% In 2019: React.js 31.3%, Angular/Angular.js 30.7%, Vue.js 15.2% I'm sure those number skew towards a certain kind of dev. Hopefully this gives you a better idea of how skewed it is. Also note: it's an online survey. Devs of niche frameworks can and often do encourage people to rate their framework higher
swyx 4y ago
Elm hasnt had the momentum for years, its gonna be a long shot for it to go anywhere from here > but I don't think it's been proven to work at large scales i basically have this saved now: notable companies now using svelte not just for internal apps but customer facing, critical stuff: - huggingface (for everything, including gradio) - alaska airlines (entire customer flow) - razorpay (payment dialogs) - schneider electric (many things) - ikea (entire ecomm experience) - riot games (league of legends client) - Brave (search page) - Square (developer portal) - several YC startups - and basically every notable data journalism outlet on the planet (Bloomberg, the Economist, Reuters, Les Echos, german and japanese publications, pudding.cool, and of course the NYT) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33827484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33827484
- culi 4y ago
  Nice. I think the most significant one listed there is huggingface. It's very widely used but rarely "for everything". I think that shows most companies still aren't confident in it enough to bank everything on it quite yet, but it seems like we're pretty close! Edit: and yeah you're right about Elm. Probably not a good choice for first timers. But it's a great example of what a FE that adheres to functional programming philosophies could look like. Given React's recent developments I think the skills gained from trying it out would definitely carry over to React and other emerging frameworks. Although it's famously stable and error-free, it's not been battle tested for very large and complex apps so it's likely only a good choice for sideprojects atm.
- trekkie1024 4y ago
  Apple Music too! Web player: https://music.apple.com/us/browse https://music.apple.com/us/browse

by culi 4y ago

WXLCKNO 4y ago

What would be an example of large scale for a front-end app or site?

culi 4y ago
complex dashboards like CircleCI or client portals like maybe your bank or health insurance portal many pages and lots of functionality with lots of data floating around like Reddit, Twitter literally everything/anything like Facebook, GitHub, etc For simple apps, I'd go with a PWA if possible. For single, mostly informational, pages you usually just need a static site. For a company blog, some of these tools could be used to make the frontend for a CMS, but you can also just get away with Wordpress, Squarespace, etc most of the time unless they want some really custom functionality. Then there's also micro-frontends and Astro and other related tools if you're trying to do a lot of different things and wanna mix and match different solutions to different problems
- sesm 4y ago
  BTW, is CircleCI still using ClojureScript + React or they've changed their stack?
- kevinak 4y ago
  Maybe https://beta.music.apple.com/ https://beta.music.apple.com/ qualifies? =)
  - hit8run 4y ago
    What is apple doing there? They mix ember with svelte? o_O
- roci89 4y ago
  Not huge but couchbase use svelte for their online offering https://cloud.couchbase.com/sign-up https://cloud.couchbase.com/sign-up It's got some cool db/sql stuff in there

miohtama 4y ago

Svelte will be also the career choice in couple of years, like Angular was the career choice when React launched (although they have only 3 years between them).

culi 4y ago
and before angular was jquery. But I do think there's quite a big difference between React and Angular. Angular never reached the level of marketshare that React has even if it was close. And even when it was close it was only for a few years. React has been the standard for nearly a decade now. And React has been much more explicit about growing its ecosystem whereas Angular has much fewer 3rd party plugins/tools. In addition to all that, Svelte has technically been around since 2016. Even if we cheat and say it only really started getting attention in 2018-2020, it has still been rising slower than Vue did when it launched. In the latest StackOverflow survey (2022), Svelte still hasn't even surpassed the 5% threshold for how many developers have used it. By pretty much every metric,[^0] svelte is a tiny community still. A darling of the web dev community for sure, but has not yet gained the confidence of commercial products. Perhaps this has actually been good for Svelte and its development. It definitely seems like it's heading towards much wider adoption so I guess we'll see it tested soon enough [^0]: https://gist.github.com/tkrotoff/b1caa4c3a185629299ec234d2314e190 https://gist.github.com/tkrotoff/b1caa4c3a185629299ec234d231...
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  I'm surprised that 5% of developers have used svelte. That seems like a lot, I was under the impression that webdevs are not the majority of software developers.
  - culi 4y ago
    In 2022: React.js 42.62%, Angular 20.39%, Vue.js 18.82%, Angular.js 8.99%, Svelte 4.58% In 2019: React.js 31.3%, Angular/Angular.js 30.7%, Vue.js 15.2% I'm sure those number skew towards a certain kind of dev. Hopefully this gives you a better idea of how skewed it is. Also note: it's an online survey. Devs of niche frameworks can and often do encourage people to rate their framework higher

swyx 4y ago

Elm hasnt had the momentum for years, its gonna be a long shot for it to go anywhere from here > but I don't think it's been proven to work at large scales i basically have this saved now: notable companies now using svelte not just for internal apps but customer facing, critical stuff: - huggingface (for everything, including gradio) - alaska airlines (entire customer flow) - razorpay (payment dialogs) - schneider electric (many things) - ikea (entire ecomm experience) - riot games (league of legends client) - Brave (search page) - Square (developer portal) - several YC startups - and basically every notable data journalism outlet on the planet (Bloomberg, the Economist, Reuters, Les Echos, german and japanese publications, pudding.cool, and of course the NYT) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33827484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33827484

culi 4y ago
Nice. I think the most significant one listed there is huggingface. It's very widely used but rarely "for everything". I think that shows most companies still aren't confident in it enough to bank everything on it quite yet, but it seems like we're pretty close! Edit: and yeah you're right about Elm. Probably not a good choice for first timers. But it's a great example of what a FE that adheres to functional programming philosophies could look like. Given React's recent developments I think the skills gained from trying it out would definitely carry over to React and other emerging frameworks. Although it's famously stable and error-free, it's not been battle tested for very large and complex apps so it's likely only a good choice for sideprojects atm.
trekkie1024 4y ago
Apple Music too! Web player: https://music.apple.com/us/browse https://music.apple.com/us/browse