6 ms·

I truly don't know what the point of getting an iPhone is if you're going to change every single part of it. A lot of us buy them BECAUSE of the software, not d

I truly don't know what the point of getting an iPhone is if you're going to change every single part of it. A lot of us buy them BECAUSE of the software, not despite it. Why do so many people want to force Apple to make them an Android phone?

jchw 4y ago
I don't get this logic. I've bought 4 iPhones and the biggest frustration I have is that I can't use real Firefox like I can on Android (particularly my favorite variant, Fennec F-Droid.) Not all iPhone users are the same. I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, or switch off Safari. What about this is so bad?
- eatsyourtacos 4y ago
  >I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I recently switched to an iPhone because I want everything to "just work" and not deal with the android crap- and I honestly couldn't be happier. >Not all iPhone users are the same Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works.
  - sushisource 4y ago
    How is this a meaningful retort to the other commenter? They get to use FF on iOS, you get to keep using Safari and every other stock app. What exactly is the problem there besides what comes across as some weird form of "keep the dirty Android users away from my iPhone"?
  - jchw 4y ago
    Well, Sometimes I don't like democrats. I don't like all policies backed by democratic candidates, and I definitely have problems with the DNC. However, that doesn't mean I want to vote Republican, or Green Party, or Libertarian. Please don't get caught up in taking the analogy to it's logical extreme (or read it literally, because it's not literal.) The point is that there is no perfect option on the market for me. I don't have a single criteria for the perfect smartphone. I don't just want a device that boots Firefox well. And in fact, Apple, much to the chagrin of those of us who hate Apple, makes some of the best computer and phone hardware on the planet. It's not even a contest, in some cases. Do you use a macOS computer by chance? Do you feel like the Asahi Linux effort is harming your ability to use and enjoy the Mac computer? Does it cause problems for you, or make things no longer "just work", when someone is allowed to install Firefox? > Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I do. They're not perfect either. Google Pixel phones are pretty good, but I doubt I need to expound upon the problems of them for you. You pretty much seem to get it given the next few lines. (Not trying to be condescending here.) > Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. Most users of all mass-market devices are like this, be it Samsung Galaxy, Google Pixel or iPhone. It's not really to your point, though, because iPhone has bred perhaps one of the most interesting communities through people's sheer desires to break it apart and customize it. I'm sure you're aware of the rich history of jailbreaking iPhones; and while a small percent of users, (just like Android rooting,) those jailbreaks get nontrivial huge amounts of attention. It's basically international news when a new untethered jailbreak kit shows up, and undoubtedly millions of users use them. Apple may very well not want these users, but Apple wants to make the world's best phone. Well, you may not want the consumer you get, but that's the symmetry of this all. There's a give and a take.
  - indymike 4y ago
    >I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? This is turning something that should be a gradient into a zero-sum. Features like side load dot not make existing features stop working. Allowing other browsers doesn't make iPhone just not work. > they just want something that works. The reason people are interested in side loading apps and opening up iOS is there are quite a few people like me that drop $1000 on an iPhone, and it does not just work for me when it really should work better than a $100 Android. The only difference seems to be anti-me features that protect Apple's monopoly on the app store.
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    > Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. None of that will change.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      This doesn't seem possible. Whatever changes Apple will have to make to support drop-in replacements for Siri, a complete elimination of certification requirements for Gatekeeper, and so on, as listed in this very thread, will absolutely disrupt the status quo and make things more complex. I hope that Apple will strive to make it so the defaults match the current reality, but just like soldered-in batteries mean more capacity without the need for connectors, so too do baked-in defaults mean more stability without the need to pluggability. It may not be the end of the world, but it is a pretty drastic change that people are dismissing as "allow alternate browser engines," when it's so much more than that.
      - jchw 4y ago
        It's true that there is nonzero engineering effort to make some of these things happen, but in my opinion, a lot of the problem is self-inflicted. I mean... Apple also eventually decided to support third-party keyboards. Was it a bit buggy? Absolutely. Did it obliterate quick type and make all typing buggy for all users? No. As far as I can guess, they actually special-cased third party keyboards. Fine by me. Probably fine by regulators as long as there's nothing malicious about it. Truth be told, I don't care about alternate voice assistants. That said, today, you can get almost all of Google Assistant on an iPhone just fine, the only thing it really can't do is well, respond to your voice passively and do things on the lock screen. Exactly how much power they're willing to expose I'm not sure, but it doesn't really seem like they have to give everyone access to the same internal APIs they use so as long as the APIs they provide give enough feature parity. I think the sky is not falling.
        pwinnski 4y ago
        Great example: keyboards are definitely more complicated and fiddly since the introduction of multiple keyboards. Absolutely necessary to support multiple countries, but the tradeoff is real. The sky isn't falling by any means, but iOS is absolutely going to get more complicated as a result of these changes, even for people who stick with the defaults, as I likely will in most or all cases. And of course I wonder: will Apple be releasing Siri for Android? Presumably Google would be required to allow for it.
- sidlls 4y ago
  It does force Apple to change their software and likely hardware to accommodate these things, and the result is likely to be a lower quality product. My experience with Android phones makes me want to avoid that at all costs: I switched to iPhone a few years ago because I was fed up with the garbage quality of the hardware and software even in “top of the line” models. Android phones are inferior in every respect to iPhones. I don’t want iPhones to become like Android phones.
  - jchw 4y ago
    But we're only asking for Apple to do what they do for macOS and Mac computers on iOS, essentially. Hate to seem dismissive but I really don't understand all of the fear, uncertainty and doubt around it.
    - sidlls 4y ago
      FUD accusations are just gaslighting at this point. Actual experience with real phones isn’t FUD. Phones are not desktops: they’re appliances. They don’t need the same level of customizability or direct user control, and the quality falls substantially when those anti-features are added.
      - jchw 4y ago
        The reason for a "FUD accusation" is the lack of any reasonable explanation for how the experience would "fall off." The problem with Android would be exactly the same if you were constrained to Google Play Store. The difference between Android and iOS is not that one of them allows sideloading and alternate web browsers. (And also, I viscerally disagree that a smart phone is in any way, shape or form, an "appliance". Appliances exist to serve a specific purpose. The main differentiation between an appliance containing a computer, and a computer, is that the appliance's computer hardware and software exists to drive the main function of the appliance. Smart phones are being used as pocket computers. That's not an appliance.)
        sidlls 4y ago
- chadlavi 4y ago
  Serious question though: why do you use iPhones if you want to do Android stuff? Why did you switch over in the first place? It's my impression that the hardware for newer android phones is pretty much on par, no?
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    > ... why do you use iPhones if you want to do Android stuff? Hardware. > It's my impression that the hardware for newer android phones is pretty much on par, no? eh.
  - jchw 4y ago
    What is "Android stuff"? 99% of the time, I use my phone pretty much how anyone else uses a smartphone. The status quo today is that on Apple phones, you can't even view a WebM inside of Safari. Do you have any idea how often I'd come across a page that only had WebMs? Safari won't even tell you why it's broken, it will just sit there and not load the video silently. It's worse optically considering how big of a conflict of interest it is for them, and astounding considering that on macOS, a platform with browser choices, Apple has no issues supporting WebM. No battery life problems or anything. (On Android, I do definitely take advantage of being able to use Termux, and Yt-dlp, and actually manage files. That said: this is the exception. It's very useful, but not something I'd even consider absolutely necessary.)
  - HDThoreaun 4y ago
    > why do you use iPhones if you want to do Android stuff? None of my friends are willing to download messaging apps so I need iMessage in order to have a semi decent text conversation with them.
  - qball 4y ago
    >It's my impression that the hardware for newer android phones is pretty much on par, no? No, it isn't; the iPhones are a dramatically better value provided you're not looking at the high end. The SE 2 and Pixel 6A have as much useful life remaining in them- they'll leave support at the same time and are competitive in terms of performance. The problem, of course, is that the SE 2 is half the price of the Pixel 6A. At the same price point, you have the SE 3, which is an iPhone 13 inside; Apple just happens to be 2014 Intel compared to the 2014 AMD of Qualcomm/Samsung/Google (yes, they really are that bad at CPU design). 90Hz screens aren't an advantage if the hardware and software can't keep (or stop keeping) up, and Android only has disadvantages in those areas. The only things I wish my iPhone did was block ads on YouTube (and play videos with the screen off) and not require a hundred dollar subscription fee for the privilege of not arbitrary expiring my applications after 7 days. NewPipe, uBlock Origin, and being able to install whatever I want are massive boons for the way I use my phone; provided iOS had those things, I would likely never consider an Android phone again barring significant hardware changes that Apple intentionally fails to integrate (like the foldable screens).
xwkd 4y ago
I agree completely. Having a walled garden forces Apple to focus on the quality of their software if they wish to have a competitive product. (And their software, on the whole, is good because they have control over their vertical integrations.) If you forcibly take away their incentive to compete, the appeal of the iPhone disappears. Every phone's environment becomes a Bazaar; no more Cathedrals. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
- jamil7 4y ago
  I feel it should be the opposite. If Apple is heading in the direction of more service revenue and is forced to compete on a level playing field with competitors like Spotify, for example, wouldn't this encourage them to improve Apple Music?
  - nullwarp 4y ago
    Yeah no kidding, I don't understand the parent comment at all. How does not allowing anyone to compete make it so you want to make your software better?
  - xwkd 4y ago
    I don't mean this to sound rude, but I don't know the answer: Are you a software developer? Being forced to depend on service revenue rather than the appeal of an integrated platform means that the quality of the integrated platform will decline. Sure, Apple Music as an individual piece of software in support of the service offering may improve, but what about the underlying Frameworks that support it? The money, in developer resources, has to be spent somewhere.
jamil7 4y ago
The software you like isn't going anywhere and you don't have to change any of those defaults. The mac allows you to change defaults and install whatever you want and it's still a great platform.
thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
>> Why do so many people want to force Apple to make them an Android phone? It's because they want to "Think Different" than the way Apple wants them to. It's your phone. Shouldn't you be able to run the software you want on it?
- mvanbaak 4y ago
  as if that is possible on android phones. on most phones you cant even get stock android.
  - thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
    >> as if that is possible on android phones. on most phones you cant even get stock android. It's true that some Android phones are more locked down than others. However, on most you can side load apps and install alternative App Stores such as f-Droid or Amazon, with just a few settings changes. The same is not possible with Apple devices. You can temporarily side load an app if you pay the costs to get a developer key to sign an app. Alternative App Stores are just not possible yet.
nicoburns 4y ago
> A lot of us buy them BECAUSE of the software, not despite it. Well the built-in software will still be there. And if you have a use-case that it doesn't support then you'll have the option to install other software that does. Seems like a pure win from a user perspective.
micromacrofoot 4y ago
It would all be opt-in, so not much changing unless you want it to.
JustSomeNobody 4y ago
You don't have to change how you use your iPhone. You can keep all your same defaults.
starik36 4y ago
I think part of it, at least for me, is 99.9% of it is perfect, but I want to change this one small thing. For years, I had the jailbreak installed only for a single feature.

jchw 4y ago

I don't get this logic. I've bought 4 iPhones and the biggest frustration I have is that I can't use real Firefox like I can on Android (particularly my favorite variant, Fennec F-Droid.) Not all iPhone users are the same. I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, or switch off Safari. What about this is so bad?

eatsyourtacos 4y ago
>I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I recently switched to an iPhone because I want everything to "just work" and not deal with the android crap- and I honestly couldn't be happier. >Not all iPhone users are the same Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works.
- sushisource 4y ago
  How is this a meaningful retort to the other commenter? They get to use FF on iOS, you get to keep using Safari and every other stock app. What exactly is the problem there besides what comes across as some weird form of "keep the dirty Android users away from my iPhone"?
- jchw 4y ago
  Well, Sometimes I don't like democrats. I don't like all policies backed by democratic candidates, and I definitely have problems with the DNC. However, that doesn't mean I want to vote Republican, or Green Party, or Libertarian. Please don't get caught up in taking the analogy to it's logical extreme (or read it literally, because it's not literal.) The point is that there is no perfect option on the market for me. I don't have a single criteria for the perfect smartphone. I don't just want a device that boots Firefox well. And in fact, Apple, much to the chagrin of those of us who hate Apple, makes some of the best computer and phone hardware on the planet. It's not even a contest, in some cases. Do you use a macOS computer by chance? Do you feel like the Asahi Linux effort is harming your ability to use and enjoy the Mac computer? Does it cause problems for you, or make things no longer "just work", when someone is allowed to install Firefox? > Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? I do. They're not perfect either. Google Pixel phones are pretty good, but I doubt I need to expound upon the problems of them for you. You pretty much seem to get it given the next few lines. (Not trying to be condescending here.) > Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. Most users of all mass-market devices are like this, be it Samsung Galaxy, Google Pixel or iPhone. It's not really to your point, though, because iPhone has bred perhaps one of the most interesting communities through people's sheer desires to break it apart and customize it. I'm sure you're aware of the rich history of jailbreaking iPhones; and while a small percent of users, (just like Android rooting,) those jailbreaks get nontrivial huge amounts of attention. It's basically international news when a new untethered jailbreak kit shows up, and undoubtedly millions of users use them. Apple may very well not want these users, but Apple wants to make the world's best phone. Well, you may not want the consumer you get, but that's the symmetry of this all. There's a give and a take.
- indymike 4y ago
  >I'm not forcing you to side-load apps, And no one is forcing you to buy an iPhone. Why don't you buy Android if you want to do all that stuff? This is turning something that should be a gradient into a zero-sum. Features like side load dot not make existing features stop working. Allowing other browsers doesn't make iPhone just not work. > they just want something that works. The reason people are interested in side loading apps and opening up iOS is there are quite a few people like me that drop $1000 on an iPhone, and it does not just work for me when it really should work better than a $100 Android. The only difference seems to be anti-me features that protect Apple's monopoly on the app store.
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  > Actually most of them are- they don't want to deal managing a device.. they just want something that works. None of that will change.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    This doesn't seem possible. Whatever changes Apple will have to make to support drop-in replacements for Siri, a complete elimination of certification requirements for Gatekeeper, and so on, as listed in this very thread, will absolutely disrupt the status quo and make things more complex. I hope that Apple will strive to make it so the defaults match the current reality, but just like soldered-in batteries mean more capacity without the need for connectors, so too do baked-in defaults mean more stability without the need to pluggability. It may not be the end of the world, but it is a pretty drastic change that people are dismissing as "allow alternate browser engines," when it's so much more than that.
    - jchw 4y ago
      It's true that there is nonzero engineering effort to make some of these things happen, but in my opinion, a lot of the problem is self-inflicted. I mean... Apple also eventually decided to support third-party keyboards. Was it a bit buggy? Absolutely. Did it obliterate quick type and make all typing buggy for all users? No. As far as I can guess, they actually special-cased third party keyboards. Fine by me. Probably fine by regulators as long as there's nothing malicious about it. Truth be told, I don't care about alternate voice assistants. That said, today, you can get almost all of Google Assistant on an iPhone just fine, the only thing it really can't do is well, respond to your voice passively and do things on the lock screen. Exactly how much power they're willing to expose I'm not sure, but it doesn't really seem like they have to give everyone access to the same internal APIs they use so as long as the APIs they provide give enough feature parity. I think the sky is not falling.
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        Great example: keyboards are definitely more complicated and fiddly since the introduction of multiple keyboards. Absolutely necessary to support multiple countries, but the tradeoff is real. The sky isn't falling by any means, but iOS is absolutely going to get more complicated as a result of these changes, even for people who stick with the defaults, as I likely will in most or all cases. And of course I wonder: will Apple be releasing Siri for Android? Presumably Google would be required to allow for it.
sidlls 4y ago
It does force Apple to change their software and likely hardware to accommodate these things, and the result is likely to be a lower quality product. My experience with Android phones makes me want to avoid that at all costs: I switched to iPhone a few years ago because I was fed up with the garbage quality of the hardware and software even in “top of the line” models. Android phones are inferior in every respect to iPhones. I don’t want iPhones to become like Android phones.
- jchw 4y ago
  But we're only asking for Apple to do what they do for macOS and Mac computers on iOS, essentially. Hate to seem dismissive but I really don't understand all of the fear, uncertainty and doubt around it.
  - sidlls 4y ago
    FUD accusations are just gaslighting at this point. Actual experience with real phones isn’t FUD. Phones are not desktops: they’re appliances. They don’t need the same level of customizability or direct user control, and the quality falls substantially when those anti-features are added.
    - jchw 4y ago
      The reason for a "FUD accusation" is the lack of any reasonable explanation for how the experience would "fall off." The problem with Android would be exactly the same if you were constrained to Google Play Store. The difference between Android and iOS is not that one of them allows sideloading and alternate web browsers. (And also, I viscerally disagree that a smart phone is in any way, shape or form, an "appliance". Appliances exist to serve a specific purpose. The main differentiation between an appliance containing a computer, and a computer, is that the appliance's computer hardware and software exists to drive the main function of the appliance. Smart phones are being used as pocket computers. That's not an appliance.)
      - sidlls 4y ago
chadlavi 4y ago
Serious question though: why do you use iPhones if you want to do Android stuff? Why did you switch over in the first place? It's my impression that the hardware for newer android phones is pretty much on par, no?
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  > ... why do you use iPhones if you want to do Android stuff? Hardware. > It's my impression that the hardware for newer android phones is pretty much on par, no? eh.
- jchw 4y ago
  What is "Android stuff"? 99% of the time, I use my phone pretty much how anyone else uses a smartphone. The status quo today is that on Apple phones, you can't even view a WebM inside of Safari. Do you have any idea how often I'd come across a page that only had WebMs? Safari won't even tell you why it's broken, it will just sit there and not load the video silently. It's worse optically considering how big of a conflict of interest it is for them, and astounding considering that on macOS, a platform with browser choices, Apple has no issues supporting WebM. No battery life problems or anything. (On Android, I do definitely take advantage of being able to use Termux, and Yt-dlp, and actually manage files. That said: this is the exception. It's very useful, but not something I'd even consider absolutely necessary.)
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  > why do you use iPhones if you want to do Android stuff? None of my friends are willing to download messaging apps so I need iMessage in order to have a semi decent text conversation with them.
- qball 4y ago
  >It's my impression that the hardware for newer android phones is pretty much on par, no? No, it isn't; the iPhones are a dramatically better value provided you're not looking at the high end. The SE 2 and Pixel 6A have as much useful life remaining in them- they'll leave support at the same time and are competitive in terms of performance. The problem, of course, is that the SE 2 is half the price of the Pixel 6A. At the same price point, you have the SE 3, which is an iPhone 13 inside; Apple just happens to be 2014 Intel compared to the 2014 AMD of Qualcomm/Samsung/Google (yes, they really are that bad at CPU design). 90Hz screens aren't an advantage if the hardware and software can't keep (or stop keeping) up, and Android only has disadvantages in those areas. The only things I wish my iPhone did was block ads on YouTube (and play videos with the screen off) and not require a hundred dollar subscription fee for the privilege of not arbitrary expiring my applications after 7 days. NewPipe, uBlock Origin, and being able to install whatever I want are massive boons for the way I use my phone; provided iOS had those things, I would likely never consider an Android phone again barring significant hardware changes that Apple intentionally fails to integrate (like the foldable screens).

xwkd 4y ago

I agree completely. Having a walled garden forces Apple to focus on the quality of their software if they wish to have a competitive product. (And their software, on the whole, is good because they have control over their vertical integrations.) If you forcibly take away their incentive to compete, the appeal of the iPhone disappears. Every phone's environment becomes a Bazaar; no more Cathedrals. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar

jamil7 4y ago
I feel it should be the opposite. If Apple is heading in the direction of more service revenue and is forced to compete on a level playing field with competitors like Spotify, for example, wouldn't this encourage them to improve Apple Music?
- nullwarp 4y ago
  Yeah no kidding, I don't understand the parent comment at all. How does not allowing anyone to compete make it so you want to make your software better?
- xwkd 4y ago
  I don't mean this to sound rude, but I don't know the answer: Are you a software developer? Being forced to depend on service revenue rather than the appeal of an integrated platform means that the quality of the integrated platform will decline. Sure, Apple Music as an individual piece of software in support of the service offering may improve, but what about the underlying Frameworks that support it? The money, in developer resources, has to be spent somewhere.

jamil7 4y ago

The software you like isn't going anywhere and you don't have to change any of those defaults. The mac allows you to change defaults and install whatever you want and it's still a great platform.

thesuperbigfrog 4y ago

>> Why do so many people want to force Apple to make them an Android phone? It's because they want to "Think Different" than the way Apple wants them to. It's your phone. Shouldn't you be able to run the software you want on it?

mvanbaak 4y ago
as if that is possible on android phones. on most phones you cant even get stock android.
- thesuperbigfrog 4y ago
  >> as if that is possible on android phones. on most phones you cant even get stock android. It's true that some Android phones are more locked down than others. However, on most you can side load apps and install alternative App Stores such as f-Droid or Amazon, with just a few settings changes. The same is not possible with Apple devices. You can temporarily side load an app if you pay the costs to get a developer key to sign an app. Alternative App Stores are just not possible yet.

nicoburns 4y ago

> A lot of us buy them BECAUSE of the software, not despite it. Well the built-in software will still be there. And if you have a use-case that it doesn't support then you'll have the option to install other software that does. Seems like a pure win from a user perspective.

micromacrofoot 4y ago

It would all be opt-in, so not much changing unless you want it to.

JustSomeNobody 4y ago

You don't have to change how you use your iPhone. You can keep all your same defaults.

starik36 4y ago

I think part of it, at least for me, is 99.9% of it is perfect, but I want to change this one small thing. For years, I had the jailbreak installed only for a single feature.