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This policy change is actually just a direct consequence of the upcoming 2024 EU law that forces Apple to allow third party app stores for iOS devices. Becaus

by Permik 4y ago

This policy change is actually just a direct consequence of the upcoming 2024 EU law that forces Apple to allow third party app stores for iOS devices. Because Apple can't control what applications get uploaded to the third party stores, like browsers that use a different web engine, then they try to lax the rules in their own store to desperately keep developers from jumping the ship.

sidlls 4y ago
The kind of developers who’d “jump ship”, especially for developing web apps, make the kinds of apps that I want to avoid anyway. Third party app stores will be a cesspool of malware and garbage, like they are on Android now.
- koshergweilo 4y ago
  I don't understand, what's wrong with fdroid? Have you ever used Cydia?
  - least 4y ago
    F-Droid is an odd one. The apps aren't malware but in my experience most of the apps on it are pretty low quality in at least one area (especially in user interface and experience), but that's a problem prevalent in FOSS in general, not just F-Droid. I'd say the Google Play store is the one actually full of awful software a lot of which is actually malware. Part of this can be attributed to Google's loose requirements and the other perhaps Android's security model in general is too permissive. It's very easy to fuck up your Android phone in a way that you simply can't on iOS. I'm not terribly concerned about it since I think a lot of it comes down to how iOS and Android are designed, but it's not not a concern.
- tick_tock_tick 4y ago
  > The kind of developers who’d “jump ship”, especially for developing web apps It would be to allow you to install chrome or firefox on your iPhone.
Terretta 4y ago
Does this EU law require Xbox to allow Apple to sell games on Xbox, or require Sony to support Xbox GamePass? What's the delta between a console and an appliance? Who is allowed to vertically integrate, and who isn't? Under what principle of free markets and user choice? Should users by forbidden from choosing true vertical integration as a design choice? Why? Why does Steam charge 30% if we think Apple having no competitors is why they charge 30%? Since you can sell anything for PC users anywhere, why don't developers jump from Steam's ship when options like Gog are available?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Who is allowed to vertically integrate, and who isn't? Under what principle of free markets and user choice? Should users by forbidden from choosing true vertical integration as a design choice? Why? Vertical integration related to the central communication system in society has been recognized as particularly problematic for quite some time.
- stale2002 4y ago
  > What's the delta between a console and an appliance? The delta is how large and important the mobile phone market is, and the fact that it is a centralized duopoly. It is perfectly fine to target legislation towards larger, more centralized, and more important markets. You are also engaging in whataboutism. Maybe there really are problems with the console market. But regardless of that, we should still take action on the much more important phone market.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    > duopoly Is there some meaningful console I'm missing besides Xbox and PlayStation?
    - stale2002 4y ago
      Yes there is. There is Nintendo, as well as the PC (which is both an open platform and larger than the rest of the platforms combined.)
cmelbye 4y ago
> Apple can't control what applications get uploaded to the third party stores Is this actually true? I don't know how I would find the answer to this question without paying a team of lawyers to analyze the 40,000 word Digital Markets Act. However, my guess is that it's more nuanced. Structurally, I think the developer program will be unchanged. iOS will still require code signing using a certificate issued by Apple. It will also continue to have sandboxing and restrictions that prevent apps from using private APIs. Apple will continue to require developers to accept an agreement and reserve the right to revoke access in the event of a violation. As dictated by the DMA, legal agreements like the App Store guidelines will become more permissive and new public APIs will be introduced to support certain use cases that were previously reserved for Apple. But this does not mean Apple can't control their platform anymore.
- FateOfNations 4y ago
  Hopefully so. All I see here is increased attack surfaces for malware. I like the fact that Apple must sign everything running on my phone. I don't want everyone's security thrown away in the name of some idealized perfectly competitive market. The App Store Guidelines really have two separate groups of restrictions: platform security/privacy, verses use cases/content that Apple doesn't want to be commercially associated with. My "perfect world" would be Apple retaining strong security/privacy/integrity related controls (on a non-discriminatory basis) at the platform level, potentially through something that looks like the existing Apple Developer Program, while allowing for third party distribution, marketing, and retail. Ideally Apple's own user facing apps would be meeting the same platform level controls as third-party apps.

by Permik 4y ago

sidlls 4y ago

The kind of developers who’d “jump ship”, especially for developing web apps, make the kinds of apps that I want to avoid anyway. Third party app stores will be a cesspool of malware and garbage, like they are on Android now.

koshergweilo 4y ago
I don't understand, what's wrong with fdroid? Have you ever used Cydia?
- least 4y ago
  F-Droid is an odd one. The apps aren't malware but in my experience most of the apps on it are pretty low quality in at least one area (especially in user interface and experience), but that's a problem prevalent in FOSS in general, not just F-Droid. I'd say the Google Play store is the one actually full of awful software a lot of which is actually malware. Part of this can be attributed to Google's loose requirements and the other perhaps Android's security model in general is too permissive. It's very easy to fuck up your Android phone in a way that you simply can't on iOS. I'm not terribly concerned about it since I think a lot of it comes down to how iOS and Android are designed, but it's not not a concern.
tick_tock_tick 4y ago
> The kind of developers who’d “jump ship”, especially for developing web apps It would be to allow you to install chrome or firefox on your iPhone.

Terretta 4y ago

Does this EU law require Xbox to allow Apple to sell games on Xbox, or require Sony to support Xbox GamePass? What's the delta between a console and an appliance? Who is allowed to vertically integrate, and who isn't? Under what principle of free markets and user choice? Should users by forbidden from choosing true vertical integration as a design choice? Why? Why does Steam charge 30% if we think Apple having no competitors is why they charge 30%? Since you can sell anything for PC users anywhere, why don't developers jump from Steam's ship when options like Gog are available?

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Who is allowed to vertically integrate, and who isn't? Under what principle of free markets and user choice? Should users by forbidden from choosing true vertical integration as a design choice? Why? Vertical integration related to the central communication system in society has been recognized as particularly problematic for quite some time.
stale2002 4y ago
> What's the delta between a console and an appliance? The delta is how large and important the mobile phone market is, and the fact that it is a centralized duopoly. It is perfectly fine to target legislation towards larger, more centralized, and more important markets. You are also engaging in whataboutism. Maybe there really are problems with the console market. But regardless of that, we should still take action on the much more important phone market.
- Terretta 4y ago
  > duopoly Is there some meaningful console I'm missing besides Xbox and PlayStation?
  - stale2002 4y ago
    Yes there is. There is Nintendo, as well as the PC (which is both an open platform and larger than the rest of the platforms combined.)

cmelbye 4y ago

> Apple can't control what applications get uploaded to the third party stores Is this actually true? I don't know how I would find the answer to this question without paying a team of lawyers to analyze the 40,000 word Digital Markets Act. However, my guess is that it's more nuanced. Structurally, I think the developer program will be unchanged. iOS will still require code signing using a certificate issued by Apple. It will also continue to have sandboxing and restrictions that prevent apps from using private APIs. Apple will continue to require developers to accept an agreement and reserve the right to revoke access in the event of a violation. As dictated by the DMA, legal agreements like the App Store guidelines will become more permissive and new public APIs will be introduced to support certain use cases that were previously reserved for Apple. But this does not mean Apple can't control their platform anymore.

FateOfNations 4y ago
Hopefully so. All I see here is increased attack surfaces for malware. I like the fact that Apple must sign everything running on my phone. I don't want everyone's security thrown away in the name of some idealized perfectly competitive market. The App Store Guidelines really have two separate groups of restrictions: platform security/privacy, verses use cases/content that Apple doesn't want to be commercially associated with. My "perfect world" would be Apple retaining strong security/privacy/integrity related controls (on a non-discriminatory basis) at the platform level, potentially through something that looks like the existing Apple Developer Program, while allowing for third party distribution, marketing, and retail. Ideally Apple's own user facing apps would be meeting the same platform level controls as third-party apps.