4 ms·

To my surprise I found some of this quite compelling. I will withhold judgment until the inevitable fact-checking. I think this case will end up in case-law t

To my surprise I found some of this quite compelling. I will withhold judgment until the inevitable fact-checking. I think this case will end up in case-law textbooks. It's going to generate so much precedent.

skippyboxedhero 4y ago
I was a huge critic of SBF and his lies. But a lot of the points he makes about the role of CZ and the bankruptcy lawyers are quite correct. People will do the usual thing: talk about SBF in hushed tones, FTX goes bankrupt, well the guy is just a total idiot...and I agree, the guy seems like a total idiot, the interviews, the way he is behaving now...it is childish. But he is also saying stuff that is quite correct (for example, pointing out the Sullivan Cromwell immediately took their $4m but ghosted him when he was trying to talk about an offer...whether it was true or not, Sullivan Cromwell had a responsibility to check, they didn't, and they didn't because they will see way more fee income that way...I have seen this happen over and over). The world has to be black and white in these cases, but isn't. I have no doubt that SBF committed crimes but I would gently point out: the bankruptcy lawyers have a vested interest in certain questions not being answered immediately, Ray is working at $1.5k/hour, and will be billing 10+ hours a day...for 5+ years if they are able to...$15k/day...again, FOR YEARS. That is, potentially, $20m+ of basically guaranteed income. The business is exceptionally profitable and these people are skilled in milking these cases dry (to the cost of creditors, these cases are...contrary to what people think...not terribly complicated, even with Lehman a lot of the claims were sold on...it was an international business though, so you had global law firms sink their teeth in hard).
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  As another commenter alluded to above: blaming the bankruptcy team? The horse has bolted. The fact it got to that point is the point, not what happens afterwards. The fraud and whatever else has already been committed. Anyone pointing fingers at the bankruptcy team are attempting to distract from the core issue (which is precisely why SBF is doing it - don't look at the monumental mess I made, look how badly they're trying to clean it up).
- j7ake 4y ago
  20m is a small fraction of the billions that disappeared because of SBF.
  - lend000 4y ago
    Just because SBF is the villain, doesn't mean all of his enemies are suddenly our friends (contrary to the popular saying). The world works on incentives, and bankruptcy lawyers are incentivized to maximize billable hours. While I have no doubt they are doing their job and doing it well, they are almost certainly not doing it in a hurry.
    - sgammon 4y ago
      What? In theory, the bankruptcy team are the "good guys" because they are working on behalf of the creditors, not because they are at odds with SBF. SBF is who put SBF in the position of being at odds with customers.
      - lend000 4y ago
        I'm not arguing against you. I'm arguing against the reality that most people struggle to differentiate between shades of gray and down-voted the parent simply because he wasn't unequivocally bashing SBF, and dared to comment on some other complexities of the situation. If SBF tweeted the sky is blue, would you refuse to believe it simply because SBF is a fraud? The bankruptcy team is working to fix his mess, but they are first and foremost working for an hourly rate.
boppo1 4y ago
What did you find compelling?
- bluelightning2k 4y ago
  The point about the lawyers essentially awarding themselves business, and that informing their advice. Also I do find it somewhat credible that he drank his own cool-aid. Important disclaimer: I would never associate "price of token goes up" with "value was created". The only way to create wealth (sustainably) is to create value in the world & capture some %age of that value. However, I do somewhat believe that he may have thought the many-year run of on-paper profits was more material than it actually was. In the same way that many gamblers believe they have a system, etc.

skippyboxedhero 4y ago

I was a huge critic of SBF and his lies. But a lot of the points he makes about the role of CZ and the bankruptcy lawyers are quite correct. People will do the usual thing: talk about SBF in hushed tones, FTX goes bankrupt, well the guy is just a total idiot...and I agree, the guy seems like a total idiot, the interviews, the way he is behaving now...it is childish. But he is also saying stuff that is quite correct (for example, pointing out the Sullivan Cromwell immediately took their $4m but ghosted him when he was trying to talk about an offer...whether it was true or not, Sullivan Cromwell had a responsibility to check, they didn't, and they didn't because they will see way more fee income that way...I have seen this happen over and over). The world has to be black and white in these cases, but isn't. I have no doubt that SBF committed crimes but I would gently point out: the bankruptcy lawyers have a vested interest in certain questions not being answered immediately, Ray is working at $1.5k/hour, and will be billing 10+ hours a day...for 5+ years if they are able to...$15k/day...again, FOR YEARS. That is, potentially, $20m+ of basically guaranteed income. The business is exceptionally profitable and these people are skilled in milking these cases dry (to the cost of creditors, these cases are...contrary to what people think...not terribly complicated, even with Lehman a lot of the claims were sold on...it was an international business though, so you had global law firms sink their teeth in hard).

BLKNSLVR 4y ago
As another commenter alluded to above: blaming the bankruptcy team? The horse has bolted. The fact it got to that point is the point, not what happens afterwards. The fraud and whatever else has already been committed. Anyone pointing fingers at the bankruptcy team are attempting to distract from the core issue (which is precisely why SBF is doing it - don't look at the monumental mess I made, look how badly they're trying to clean it up).
j7ake 4y ago
20m is a small fraction of the billions that disappeared because of SBF.
- lend000 4y ago
  Just because SBF is the villain, doesn't mean all of his enemies are suddenly our friends (contrary to the popular saying). The world works on incentives, and bankruptcy lawyers are incentivized to maximize billable hours. While I have no doubt they are doing their job and doing it well, they are almost certainly not doing it in a hurry.
  - sgammon 4y ago
    What? In theory, the bankruptcy team are the "good guys" because they are working on behalf of the creditors, not because they are at odds with SBF. SBF is who put SBF in the position of being at odds with customers.
    - lend000 4y ago
      I'm not arguing against you. I'm arguing against the reality that most people struggle to differentiate between shades of gray and down-voted the parent simply because he wasn't unequivocally bashing SBF, and dared to comment on some other complexities of the situation. If SBF tweeted the sky is blue, would you refuse to believe it simply because SBF is a fraud? The bankruptcy team is working to fix his mess, but they are first and foremost working for an hourly rate.

boppo1 4y ago

What did you find compelling?

bluelightning2k 4y ago
The point about the lawyers essentially awarding themselves business, and that informing their advice. Also I do find it somewhat credible that he drank his own cool-aid. Important disclaimer: I would never associate "price of token goes up" with "value was created". The only way to create wealth (sustainably) is to create value in the world & capture some %age of that value. However, I do somewhat believe that he may have thought the many-year run of on-paper profits was more material than it actually was. In the same way that many gamblers believe they have a system, etc.