5 ms·

Criminalization of prostitution on either side of the transaction, as this post advocates, is sickeningly anti-woman. It suggests women do not have agency and c

by 0xy 4y ago

Criminalization of prostitution on either side of the transaction, as this post advocates, is sickeningly anti-woman. It suggests women do not have agency and cannot make their own choices. The author of this post selfishly wants to tear down women who safely practice the profession because of her own bad experiences.

boxed 4y ago
The author has personal experience. Do you?
tjoff 4y ago
As opposed to male prostitutes?
- rosnd 4y ago
  Well yes, the people writing prostitution laws tend to fail to even consider the existence of male prostitutes.
UncleEntity 4y ago
I honestly thought the “Nordic Model” was some kind of legalization effort based on TFA talking about how much safer and more profitable it was compared to other countries.
maweki 4y ago
How do you really know that the person selling sex really wants to and isn't consciously or unconsciously forced by it by the economic circumstances?
- lzauz 4y ago
  Most people who have jobs do not work because they want to but because they are forced by economic circumstances. Should we abolish work?
  - maweki 4y ago
    Well, if you're asking whether capitalism and economic necessities are the root of most of our problems, then my answer is a resounding yes.
    - mantas 4y ago
      As if non-capitalist system would get rid of shitty jobs and being forced to work. Point in case - USSR where not working was a crime :)
  - eurasiantiger 4y ago
    It wouldn’t be such a bad idea to take laissez-faire all the way to workers. Abolish bullshit jobs but foster ones that are meaningful to people.
- thecopy 4y ago
  In this scenario: how does making buying illegal help the woman? The entire market is pushed into the unregulated black market as a side-effect of making buying illegal. This world is dominated by criminals and gangs.
  - snapplebobapple 4y ago
    Making things illegal makes the price a lot higher and that it is only illegal for the buyer turns it into a potential extortion gig so the buyer should really be on their best behavior unless they also plan on murdering the sex worker to avoid extortion. Since the vast majority of people don't plan on killing their sex worker you end up with mostly higher prices and lower risk, especially if you can avoid paying out to gangs, which the girl in the article appears to have accomplished, leading me to believe it's more doable than you imply. Getting paid way more for the same amount of work is obviously beneficial.
- naasking 4y ago
  > How do you really know that the person selling sex really wants to and isn't consciously or unconsciously forced by it by the economic circumstances You mean like every other shitty job? If economic circumstances are the core problem, then address those rather than taking away people's agency.
  - maweki 4y ago
    Yes. You're right. And I still think it's a bit easier in the short term to implement worker protection than a worldwide anti-capitalist revolution.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > Yes. You're right. And I still think it's a bit easier in the short term to implement worker protection than a worldwide anti-capitalist revolution. I agree, worker protections for sex work is a great idea.
  - mantas 4y ago
    There's a pretty big difference between prostitution and other shitty jobs from mental health perspective.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > There's a pretty big difference between prostitution and other shitty jobs from mental health perspective. Is there though? Or is it really the circumstances around the sex work that cause these problems, like legislation that forces women to work with pimps for protection, who then get them hooked on hard drugs and physically abuse them.
      - mantas 4y ago
        There're quite a few things going on in human body during sex that doesn't happen with most lines of work. Let alone what happens in case of pregnancy.
- concordDance 4y ago
  What happens to those who can't sell sex experiencing those same economic circumstances?
throw_m239339 4y ago
> , is sickeningly anti-woman. Some people argue that prostitution is sickeningly anti-_women_ . > It suggests women do not have agency and cannot make their own choices. That's the "liberal" ideology, everything is a merchandise including people's body, as long as there is some form of "consent". Obviously consent can be fabricated (grooming, proxenetism, ...) before the prostitute realizes that they've been sexually exploited and abused. In Europe there is that grooming phenomenon where young girls, often minors are emotionally manipulated by their (older) boyfriend and then asked to prostitute themselves for "love" or just hooked to hard drugs to make them more docile. Obviously there is the question of emotional maturity when it comes to consent. Liberals aren't concern by the psychological taul of prostitution, and its social consequences, only by perpetuating sex as a product like toothpaste or a bigmac ...
- naasking 4y ago
  > Obviously consent can be fabricated (grooming, proxenetism, ...) before the prostitute realizes that they've been sexually exploited and abused. In Europe there is that grooming phenomenon where young girls, often minors are emotionally manipulated by their (older) boyfriend and then asked to prostitute themselves for "love" or just hooked to hard drugs to make them more docile Sounds like you have a good handle on the actual problem, so why not criminalize that rather than restricting people's agency. > only by perpetuating sex as a product like toothpaste or a bigmac ... I'm not sure why you think denigrating the people who don't raise sex on some pedestal is supposed to be convincing. Some people have no problem offering sex as a transactional good like selling big macs, and you haven't actually presented an argument for why that should be universally considered wrong.
  - throw_m239339 4y ago
    > Sounds like you have a good handle on the actual problem, so why not criminalize that rather than restricting people's agency. Sounds like I just wrote a counter argument to your idea of "consent". Where does it stop? "I consent to be murdered an eaten alive so that family gets one million"? In an ultra-liberal society, you'll always find somebody making the argument that if people consent to that, that "business transaction" should be legal. The fact the parent claim that forbidding prostitution is "anti-woman" is laughable at best. It's anti-ultra-liberal, sure, but it isn't "anti-woman". What is anti-woman is men thinking of women as a mere commercial product.
mardifoufs 4y ago
Couldn't you say the same about most labor laws? Is it restrictive to my agency that I can't choose to work 80h/weeks with no overtime? Or that I can't choose to work somewhere that pays me less than minimum wage? In both cases it limits my ability to make personal choices, because we acknowledge that there are power dynamics that can affect/influence my actual freedom of choice. What's the difference here?
- dorfsmay 4y ago
  Can you not do that has an independent contractor?

by 0xy 4y ago

boxed 4y ago

The author has personal experience. Do you?

tjoff 4y ago

As opposed to male prostitutes?

rosnd 4y ago
Well yes, the people writing prostitution laws tend to fail to even consider the existence of male prostitutes.

UncleEntity 4y ago

I honestly thought the “Nordic Model” was some kind of legalization effort based on TFA talking about how much safer and more profitable it was compared to other countries.

maweki 4y ago

How do you really know that the person selling sex really wants to and isn't consciously or unconsciously forced by it by the economic circumstances?

lzauz 4y ago
Most people who have jobs do not work because they want to but because they are forced by economic circumstances. Should we abolish work?
- maweki 4y ago
  Well, if you're asking whether capitalism and economic necessities are the root of most of our problems, then my answer is a resounding yes.
  - mantas 4y ago
    As if non-capitalist system would get rid of shitty jobs and being forced to work. Point in case - USSR where not working was a crime :)
- eurasiantiger 4y ago
  It wouldn’t be such a bad idea to take laissez-faire all the way to workers. Abolish bullshit jobs but foster ones that are meaningful to people.
thecopy 4y ago
In this scenario: how does making buying illegal help the woman? The entire market is pushed into the unregulated black market as a side-effect of making buying illegal. This world is dominated by criminals and gangs.
- snapplebobapple 4y ago
  Making things illegal makes the price a lot higher and that it is only illegal for the buyer turns it into a potential extortion gig so the buyer should really be on their best behavior unless they also plan on murdering the sex worker to avoid extortion. Since the vast majority of people don't plan on killing their sex worker you end up with mostly higher prices and lower risk, especially if you can avoid paying out to gangs, which the girl in the article appears to have accomplished, leading me to believe it's more doable than you imply. Getting paid way more for the same amount of work is obviously beneficial.
naasking 4y ago
> How do you really know that the person selling sex really wants to and isn't consciously or unconsciously forced by it by the economic circumstances You mean like every other shitty job? If economic circumstances are the core problem, then address those rather than taking away people's agency.
- maweki 4y ago
  Yes. You're right. And I still think it's a bit easier in the short term to implement worker protection than a worldwide anti-capitalist revolution.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > Yes. You're right. And I still think it's a bit easier in the short term to implement worker protection than a worldwide anti-capitalist revolution. I agree, worker protections for sex work is a great idea.
- mantas 4y ago
  There's a pretty big difference between prostitution and other shitty jobs from mental health perspective.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > There's a pretty big difference between prostitution and other shitty jobs from mental health perspective. Is there though? Or is it really the circumstances around the sex work that cause these problems, like legislation that forces women to work with pimps for protection, who then get them hooked on hard drugs and physically abuse them.
    - mantas 4y ago
      There're quite a few things going on in human body during sex that doesn't happen with most lines of work. Let alone what happens in case of pregnancy.
concordDance 4y ago
What happens to those who can't sell sex experiencing those same economic circumstances?

throw_m239339 4y ago

> , is sickeningly anti-woman. Some people argue that prostitution is sickeningly anti-_women_ . > It suggests women do not have agency and cannot make their own choices. That's the "liberal" ideology, everything is a merchandise including people's body, as long as there is some form of "consent". Obviously consent can be fabricated (grooming, proxenetism, ...) before the prostitute realizes that they've been sexually exploited and abused. In Europe there is that grooming phenomenon where young girls, often minors are emotionally manipulated by their (older) boyfriend and then asked to prostitute themselves for "love" or just hooked to hard drugs to make them more docile. Obviously there is the question of emotional maturity when it comes to consent. Liberals aren't concern by the psychological taul of prostitution, and its social consequences, only by perpetuating sex as a product like toothpaste or a bigmac ...

naasking 4y ago
> Obviously consent can be fabricated (grooming, proxenetism, ...) before the prostitute realizes that they've been sexually exploited and abused. In Europe there is that grooming phenomenon where young girls, often minors are emotionally manipulated by their (older) boyfriend and then asked to prostitute themselves for "love" or just hooked to hard drugs to make them more docile Sounds like you have a good handle on the actual problem, so why not criminalize that rather than restricting people's agency. > only by perpetuating sex as a product like toothpaste or a bigmac ... I'm not sure why you think denigrating the people who don't raise sex on some pedestal is supposed to be convincing. Some people have no problem offering sex as a transactional good like selling big macs, and you haven't actually presented an argument for why that should be universally considered wrong.
- throw_m239339 4y ago
  > Sounds like you have a good handle on the actual problem, so why not criminalize that rather than restricting people's agency. Sounds like I just wrote a counter argument to your idea of "consent". Where does it stop? "I consent to be murdered an eaten alive so that family gets one million"? In an ultra-liberal society, you'll always find somebody making the argument that if people consent to that, that "business transaction" should be legal. The fact the parent claim that forbidding prostitution is "anti-woman" is laughable at best. It's anti-ultra-liberal, sure, but it isn't "anti-woman". What is anti-woman is men thinking of women as a mere commercial product.

mardifoufs 4y ago

Couldn't you say the same about most labor laws? Is it restrictive to my agency that I can't choose to work 80h/weeks with no overtime? Or that I can't choose to work somewhere that pays me less than minimum wage? In both cases it limits my ability to make personal choices, because we acknowledge that there are power dynamics that can affect/influence my actual freedom of choice. What's the difference here?

dorfsmay 4y ago
Can you not do that has an independent contractor?