5 ms·

Developers should know to ask questions when a weird request is made. Developers presumably know how to think and have a vague idea of what the business does t

by tekla 4y ago

Developers should know to ask questions when a weird request is made. Developers presumably know how to think and have a vague idea of what the business does to know that a ask to futz with internal financials programmatically is fucking wierd.

deathanatos 4y ago
IME, it depends on your chain of command. I've literally been reprimanded in my career for asking questions. My boss at that time was crap. I didn't choose him. Asking questions can very likely get you fired. Also got reprimanded for disobeying an order at once; my boss — same one as above — would not take "no, we are in a regulated industry, and I cannot do that" for an answer. I ended up going behind his back, getting the approvals he should have gotten himself, and once I'd secured those, granted him the access he wanted. I also tried to escalate to his boss (my grand-boss) … but he didn't respond until it was all moot. But there is a lot of stress when you're fearing for your job, even though you're just trying to do things by the book. I'm inclined to side with engineers, to a degree: the chain of command's responsibility is to never put eng in that position. (Although here, the eng in question seems far higher up than I am. I'm just a bottom rung eng…) > Developers presumably know how to think and have a vague idea of what the business does to know that a ask to futz with internal financials programmatically is fucking wierd. They should but IME they often don't, and even if they do, people are lazy. It's a struggle to get people to do the things they should do some days.
- salawat 4y ago
  You want Engineer in your job title? Then you say no, and you damned well ask questions, and you damned well make sure to leave the moment they make it impossible for you to act ethically.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    This should apply to anyone. IMO engineers aren't special. As a human you should try not to fuck over other people.
    - creato 4y ago
      I assume this is a reference to other engineering disciplines, where an engineer signing off on something has real meaning.
      - galaxyLogic 4y ago
        Right, "software engineer" is often used just as a synonym for "Programmer". That's just how the industry is, currently. There are no regulations as to who can develop what software as far as I know. Whereas there are for who can design a bridge, act as your lawyer, or prescribe you medicine.
        mitjam 4y ago
        Yes and when we as software engineers / programmers act as if we don‘t care we should not be surprised if software engineering / programming gets regulated, too.
        galaxyLogic 4y ago
        Right
      - School-Cotton 4y ago
        People gatekeeping the word “engineer” is a bit annoying, since the word “engineer” dates to at least 1380 and originally just means someone who works on engines. “Engineer” as a legally super special class of job is a thing that came much later and only ever applied to certain jurisdictions anyway. “Software engineer” is just a synonym for “programmer”, in the actually existing practice of the English language.
        oesexe 4y ago
        In Denmark you need to hold a degree of engineering for you to call you an engineer of any kind. It's a protected term. As I remember, in the US it is not protected and anyone can call themselves engineers.
  - mirchibajji 4y ago
    This sounds great on paper. However, the reason "Engineer" matters is because regulation requires it. If my company is required to get a sign off from an Engineer before software is updated, then you can be 100% sure those who are qualified to sign off take their title seriously. Until then, it is just a fancy title. My impression is that this title comes from the practice of "software engineering", not necessarily that the practitioners are licensed Engineers.
- waltergrump 4y ago
  I'm in an industry with a lot of migrant workers, I was asked to write software that would change the time records for migrant workers so they never get overtime. I said I wouldn't do it unless they showed me the legal advise saying that it was ok. The office sycophant piped up and said "I'll do it". From then on I stopped being invited to meetings and my job transitioned into answering the phone and then out the door. I hope they jail the developers for 500 years, that's the sort of signal that needs to be sent.
  - bigfudge 4y ago
    (especially) if you have left this business you should blow the whistle on this. Have you thought about doing it? What are the main barriers?
    - tiahura 4y ago
      They probably weren't paying taxes on the overtime either. The IRS pays whistleblowers.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Being fired for asking questions handily beats going to jail for not asking questions.

by tekla 4y ago

deathanatos 4y ago

IME, it depends on your chain of command. I've literally been reprimanded in my career for asking questions. My boss at that time was crap. I didn't choose him. Asking questions can very likely get you fired. Also got reprimanded for disobeying an order at once; my boss — same one as above — would not take "no, we are in a regulated industry, and I cannot do that" for an answer. I ended up going behind his back, getting the approvals he should have gotten himself, and once I'd secured those, granted him the access he wanted. I also tried to escalate to his boss (my grand-boss) … but he didn't respond until it was all moot. But there is a lot of stress when you're fearing for your job, even though you're just trying to do things by the book. I'm inclined to side with engineers, to a degree: the chain of command's responsibility is to never put eng in that position. (Although here, the eng in question seems far higher up than I am. I'm just a bottom rung eng…) > Developers presumably know how to think and have a vague idea of what the business does to know that a ask to futz with internal financials programmatically is fucking wierd. They should but IME they often don't, and even if they do, people are lazy. It's a struggle to get people to do the things they should do some days.

salawat 4y ago
You want Engineer in your job title? Then you say no, and you damned well ask questions, and you damned well make sure to leave the moment they make it impossible for you to act ethically.
- notch656a 4y ago
  This should apply to anyone. IMO engineers aren't special. As a human you should try not to fuck over other people.
  - creato 4y ago
    I assume this is a reference to other engineering disciplines, where an engineer signing off on something has real meaning.
    - galaxyLogic 4y ago
      Right, "software engineer" is often used just as a synonym for "Programmer". That's just how the industry is, currently. There are no regulations as to who can develop what software as far as I know. Whereas there are for who can design a bridge, act as your lawyer, or prescribe you medicine.
      - mitjam 4y ago
        Yes and when we as software engineers / programmers act as if we don‘t care we should not be surprised if software engineering / programming gets regulated, too.
        galaxyLogic 4y ago
        Right
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      People gatekeeping the word “engineer” is a bit annoying, since the word “engineer” dates to at least 1380 and originally just means someone who works on engines. “Engineer” as a legally super special class of job is a thing that came much later and only ever applied to certain jurisdictions anyway. “Software engineer” is just a synonym for “programmer”, in the actually existing practice of the English language.
      - oesexe 4y ago
        In Denmark you need to hold a degree of engineering for you to call you an engineer of any kind. It's a protected term. As I remember, in the US it is not protected and anyone can call themselves engineers.
- mirchibajji 4y ago
  This sounds great on paper. However, the reason "Engineer" matters is because regulation requires it. If my company is required to get a sign off from an Engineer before software is updated, then you can be 100% sure those who are qualified to sign off take their title seriously. Until then, it is just a fancy title. My impression is that this title comes from the practice of "software engineering", not necessarily that the practitioners are licensed Engineers.
waltergrump 4y ago
I'm in an industry with a lot of migrant workers, I was asked to write software that would change the time records for migrant workers so they never get overtime. I said I wouldn't do it unless they showed me the legal advise saying that it was ok. The office sycophant piped up and said "I'll do it". From then on I stopped being invited to meetings and my job transitioned into answering the phone and then out the door. I hope they jail the developers for 500 years, that's the sort of signal that needs to be sent.
- bigfudge 4y ago
  (especially) if you have left this business you should blow the whistle on this. Have you thought about doing it? What are the main barriers?
  - tiahura 4y ago
    They probably weren't paying taxes on the overtime either. The IRS pays whistleblowers.
jacquesm 4y ago
Being fired for asking questions handily beats going to jail for not asking questions.