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I agree there is a problem with high healthcare costs, and food costs especially now. However what we saw with covid stimulus and unemployment wasn’t the “ever

I agree there is a problem with high healthcare costs, and food costs especially now. However what we saw with covid stimulus and unemployment wasn’t the “everyone’s now an artist” outcome that is suggested with UBI. We definitely saw creatives able to express and build their visions into the world, thanks to the money and additional time. But we also saw, and still have ongoing, many people who choose not to work [0]. Some percent of these people are suffering from substance abuse. Not to say this is purely the outcome of UBI, but I can’t imagine it helps those individuals with such proclivities for abuse. Personally I think we should have a good UBI at the least, qualified for individuals who make under a certain amount and who are able and working, or legitimately looking for a job. There’s a reason many trust fund kids go broke or dive into substance abuse. Sure there are examples of families who would not do this under similar circumstances, but giving out money for no work (assuming one is able to work), leads to hedonic pleasures unless the individual is purposely aware and trying to avoid such sand traps. [0] - https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea38.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea38.htm

patmcc 4y ago
You seem to be connecting UBI to the "Do not want a job now" category, but I don't think there's any reason to think covid stimulus/unemployment led to much growth in those particular numbers. See https://www.bls.gov/cps/aa2004/cpsaat35.pdf https://www.bls.gov/cps/aa2004/cpsaat35.pdf for the same numbers from 2003/2004; they're certainly higher now (~100k vs ~70k, but population increased, so more like 100k vs 80k if we equalize) but not that much higher. And at a glance the biggest increase is in 55+ - so possibly it's largely older people retiring rather than substance abuse or whatever. I do think UBI has risks, hopefully we can encourage useful pursuits, public works, etc.
komali2 4y ago
> but giving out money for no work (assuming one is able to work), leads to hedonic pleasures It sounds like you think this is bad. Why?
atomicnumber3 4y ago
Covid was not a great experiment. The stimulus checks were 6+ months apart each and would barely pay rent for the month in which they arrived for anyone not living in a shoebox. And UE has a lot of stipulations about you spending all your time trying to get a new job.
- factsarelolz 4y ago
  > UE has a lot of stipulations Absolutely no auditing was being done. Some states require you reach out to or inquire about at least 2 jobs per week, nothing close to "all of your time" YMMV I suppose. >U.S. watchdog estimates $45.6 billion in pandemic unemployment fraud https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/09/22/unemployment-fraud-coroanvirus-pandemic/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/09/22/unemploym...
serverholic 4y ago
A wage slave is going to have a hard time adjusting to freedom. That might seem a bit of an extreme statement but the reality is that as soon as children enter school they are steadily stripped of their creativity in favor of discipline and obedience. They are raised in a capitalist society where they are told that their worth is tied to their job. And they spend a huge chunk of their lives doing what their boss tells them. As far as the stimulus check, these were people trying to survive a global crisis and managed to get a break from the drudgery of their degrading, exploitative jobs. You can't make claims about human nature without considering the context in which these events are occurring.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
> Personally I think we should have a good UBI at the least, qualified for individuals who make under a certain amount and who are able and working, or legitimately looking for a job. The "U" in UBI means "Universal". Once you add any kind of means testing you ruin the whole idea.

patmcc 4y ago

You seem to be connecting UBI to the "Do not want a job now" category, but I don't think there's any reason to think covid stimulus/unemployment led to much growth in those particular numbers. See https://www.bls.gov/cps/aa2004/cpsaat35.pdf https://www.bls.gov/cps/aa2004/cpsaat35.pdf for the same numbers from 2003/2004; they're certainly higher now (~100k vs ~70k, but population increased, so more like 100k vs 80k if we equalize) but not that much higher. And at a glance the biggest increase is in 55+ - so possibly it's largely older people retiring rather than substance abuse or whatever. I do think UBI has risks, hopefully we can encourage useful pursuits, public works, etc.

komali2 4y ago

> but giving out money for no work (assuming one is able to work), leads to hedonic pleasures It sounds like you think this is bad. Why?

atomicnumber3 4y ago

Covid was not a great experiment. The stimulus checks were 6+ months apart each and would barely pay rent for the month in which they arrived for anyone not living in a shoebox. And UE has a lot of stipulations about you spending all your time trying to get a new job.

factsarelolz 4y ago
> UE has a lot of stipulations Absolutely no auditing was being done. Some states require you reach out to or inquire about at least 2 jobs per week, nothing close to "all of your time" YMMV I suppose. >U.S. watchdog estimates $45.6 billion in pandemic unemployment fraud https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/09/22/unemployment-fraud-coroanvirus-pandemic/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/09/22/unemploym...

serverholic 4y ago

A wage slave is going to have a hard time adjusting to freedom. That might seem a bit of an extreme statement but the reality is that as soon as children enter school they are steadily stripped of their creativity in favor of discipline and obedience. They are raised in a capitalist society where they are told that their worth is tied to their job. And they spend a huge chunk of their lives doing what their boss tells them. As far as the stimulus check, these were people trying to survive a global crisis and managed to get a break from the drudgery of their degrading, exploitative jobs. You can't make claims about human nature without considering the context in which these events are occurring.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

> Personally I think we should have a good UBI at the least, qualified for individuals who make under a certain amount and who are able and working, or legitimately looking for a job. The "U" in UBI means "Universal". Once you add any kind of means testing you ruin the whole idea.