2 ms·

>Why do people continue to tout this as some sort of gotcha? Android has multiple app stores yet this doesn't occur. Maybe not yet specifically with Meta, but

by slg 4y ago

>Why do people continue to tout this as some sort of gotcha? Android has multiple app stores yet this doesn't occur. Maybe not yet specifically with Meta, but it absolutely does happen. Fortnite is the most obvious example.

satvikpendem 4y ago
Honestly, that's fine by me. Epic made the game, they process the payments, they're not using the Google Play Store's services and storefront at all (not to be confused with Google Play Services), so why would they pay 30% simply to be on a store they don't use? Same as on a computer, I use Windows, but it'd be absurd for me to download software only through the Microsoft Store app.
- slg 4y ago
  Couldn't Meta follow the same path as Epic? Doesn't that have potential to create a situation that is worse off for consumers because their device theoretically would be less protected in terms of both security and privacy?
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    They could, but I argue that Meta requiring users to use a third party app store would likely be self-defeating for them. It could conceivably alienate a lot of users who don't want to deal with managing yet another account, let alone subject themselves to an environment run by Meta. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926
    - judge2020 4y ago
      > let alone subject themselves to an environment run by Meta. Why would EU Lawmakers be satisfies with some crazy process that requires rebooting the device or going through 10+ steps to enable sideloading? These EU laws will likely require low-friction alternate app stores, which means actually installing Facebook via an alternate method might mean something as low-friction as meta.com/store -> "trust Meta store" -> open and install Facebook.
      - Apocryphon 4y ago
        1. I don't think EU lawmakers would be opposed to sensible user flows from Apple that properly disclose the risks and provide disclaimers about the potential dangers of side loading. 2. The current Settings menu in iOS is already a jumbled mess as it is, thanks to years of layers upon layers of options added into it. Even simply getting into developer mode would cause some friction. 3. Even on Android, it's somewhat out of the way: https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-enable-developer-mode-on-android-4684044 https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-enable-developer-mode-on-and... 4. I'm talking about the existence of alternate app stores themselves adding friction. Meta forcing users to use their store would be adding an additional wrinkle as it is. Think about the current streaming space. Many many users are already forced to deal with multiple services and managing their accounts just to get into content. And now they're going to be doing it on their iPhones? It's quite likely that a substantial amount would just forego dealing with a Meta app store and just start using the the mobile website - or just abandon Facebook on their phones altogether, which is even worse than Meta. 5. A point I mention in the link but not above: EU lawmakers, who are already suspicious of Meta, will likely scrutinize any third party app stores launched by them or other big tech companies anyway. So it's not as if it would be unpoliced for privacy violations and the like. If anything, such app stores would be a treasure trove for regulators to inspect.
        judge2020 4y ago
        So we have a technological solution to cross-app tracking, and we'd downgrade to a regulatory process that hopefully fines companies enough to actually cause a difference. Oh, and you'd better hope those companies are actually located withing the EU or US, because if you PII gets siphoned to China you won't get any remediation whatsoever (at least for as long as they remain the world's manufacturing capital).
        Apocryphon 4y ago
        > we'd downgrade to a regulatory process that hopefully fines companies enough to actually cause a difference It is not a downgrade, because for those who live in democracies, such regulations are decided by we, the people, and thus we should ultimately place our faith in the democratic system, not in any private corporation, no matter how benevolent-seeming. > because if you PII gets siphoned to China you won't get any remediation whatsoever Evidence that this isn't already happening anyway? Whither current iOS users in China? > at least for as long as they remain the world's manufacturing capital Don't worry, Apple is hard at work shifting their supply chain to India and Vietnam. Right? Right?
- judge2020 4y ago
  > so why would they pay 30% simply to be on a store they don't use? The argument for this on Apple's side is that you're not paying just for the payment processing, but you pay it as a fee for benefiting from the user base that Apple attracts via their investment into their R&D from the hardware, to the UI design, to the APIs that enable your app itself to run.
  - albert180 4y ago
    Paying 1400$ for a phone is more than enough to recoup R&D, UI Design and API costs
    - judge2020 4y ago
      So, let's say Apple drops the cost of the 14 Pro Max down to $506[0]. Does it suddenly become legal? What if it's a more reasonable profit margin of $100 perhaps - at what point is it "you cannot make money off your software on the backend"? and, importantly, what makes consoles any different now that they also (A) sell either close-to-cost or at a loss, (B) tend to contain a web browser, and (C) charge a large percentage fee on third-party titles bought for the console? 0: https://www.notebookcheck.net/iPhone-14-Pro-Max-production-is-found-to-cost-46-of-its-base-retail-price-per-unit.660355.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/iPhone-14-Pro-Max-production-i...
      - stale2002 4y ago
        You were the one who brought up the idea of "but you pay [it for] their R&D from the hardware, to the UI design, to the APIs". If you want to back to take back that argument, great. So, the whole idea of "Well you are paying for all this other stuff" is completely off the table, and you can't use it, because people pay 1400$ for the phone. So lets all just completely ignore that idea, and lets stop pretending like Apple is "owed" anything for the phone that belongs to the user. The phone belongs to the user, and they paid a fair price for it, so no Apple is not owed money for any of other stuff. > at what point is it "you cannot make money off your software on the backend"? Apple can keep doing that if they want. By competing in the free market. They just can't force people onto that anymore. They will have to actually make a better product, and hope users go to that store, instead of alternatives.
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  > it'd be absurd for me to download software only through the Microsoft Store It'd be absurd for me to download software through the Microsoft Store
heavyset_go 4y ago
> Fortnite is the most obvious example. And? There are plenty of apps that are exclusive to F-Droid, as well, and the sky still hasn't fallen. Meanwhile, two companies have kept a stranglehold on all mobile app sales and mobile app payments, ensuring that businesses can't exist that can't afford a 30% cut into their margins. It's been over a decade of this insane profiteering on behalf of Apple, and in some respects Google, it's about time that the mobile app distribution market and mobile app payments market are allowed to compete and flourish.

by slg 4y ago

satvikpendem 4y ago

Honestly, that's fine by me. Epic made the game, they process the payments, they're not using the Google Play Store's services and storefront at all (not to be confused with Google Play Services), so why would they pay 30% simply to be on a store they don't use? Same as on a computer, I use Windows, but it'd be absurd for me to download software only through the Microsoft Store app.

slg 4y ago
Couldn't Meta follow the same path as Epic? Doesn't that have potential to create a situation that is worse off for consumers because their device theoretically would be less protected in terms of both security and privacy?
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  They could, but I argue that Meta requiring users to use a third party app store would likely be self-defeating for them. It could conceivably alienate a lot of users who don't want to deal with managing yet another account, let alone subject themselves to an environment run by Meta. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926
  - judge2020 4y ago
    > let alone subject themselves to an environment run by Meta. Why would EU Lawmakers be satisfies with some crazy process that requires rebooting the device or going through 10+ steps to enable sideloading? These EU laws will likely require low-friction alternate app stores, which means actually installing Facebook via an alternate method might mean something as low-friction as meta.com/store -> "trust Meta store" -> open and install Facebook.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      1. I don't think EU lawmakers would be opposed to sensible user flows from Apple that properly disclose the risks and provide disclaimers about the potential dangers of side loading. 2. The current Settings menu in iOS is already a jumbled mess as it is, thanks to years of layers upon layers of options added into it. Even simply getting into developer mode would cause some friction. 3. Even on Android, it's somewhat out of the way: https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-enable-developer-mode-on-android-4684044 https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-enable-developer-mode-on-and... 4. I'm talking about the existence of alternate app stores themselves adding friction. Meta forcing users to use their store would be adding an additional wrinkle as it is. Think about the current streaming space. Many many users are already forced to deal with multiple services and managing their accounts just to get into content. And now they're going to be doing it on their iPhones? It's quite likely that a substantial amount would just forego dealing with a Meta app store and just start using the the mobile website - or just abandon Facebook on their phones altogether, which is even worse than Meta. 5. A point I mention in the link but not above: EU lawmakers, who are already suspicious of Meta, will likely scrutinize any third party app stores launched by them or other big tech companies anyway. So it's not as if it would be unpoliced for privacy violations and the like. If anything, such app stores would be a treasure trove for regulators to inspect.
      - judge2020 4y ago
        So we have a technological solution to cross-app tracking, and we'd downgrade to a regulatory process that hopefully fines companies enough to actually cause a difference. Oh, and you'd better hope those companies are actually located withing the EU or US, because if you PII gets siphoned to China you won't get any remediation whatsoever (at least for as long as they remain the world's manufacturing capital).
        Apocryphon 4y ago
        > we'd downgrade to a regulatory process that hopefully fines companies enough to actually cause a difference It is not a downgrade, because for those who live in democracies, such regulations are decided by we, the people, and thus we should ultimately place our faith in the democratic system, not in any private corporation, no matter how benevolent-seeming. > because if you PII gets siphoned to China you won't get any remediation whatsoever Evidence that this isn't already happening anyway? Whither current iOS users in China? > at least for as long as they remain the world's manufacturing capital Don't worry, Apple is hard at work shifting their supply chain to India and Vietnam. Right? Right?
judge2020 4y ago
> so why would they pay 30% simply to be on a store they don't use? The argument for this on Apple's side is that you're not paying just for the payment processing, but you pay it as a fee for benefiting from the user base that Apple attracts via their investment into their R&D from the hardware, to the UI design, to the APIs that enable your app itself to run.
- albert180 4y ago
  Paying 1400$ for a phone is more than enough to recoup R&D, UI Design and API costs
  - judge2020 4y ago
    So, let's say Apple drops the cost of the 14 Pro Max down to $506[0]. Does it suddenly become legal? What if it's a more reasonable profit margin of $100 perhaps - at what point is it "you cannot make money off your software on the backend"? and, importantly, what makes consoles any different now that they also (A) sell either close-to-cost or at a loss, (B) tend to contain a web browser, and (C) charge a large percentage fee on third-party titles bought for the console? 0: https://www.notebookcheck.net/iPhone-14-Pro-Max-production-is-found-to-cost-46-of-its-base-retail-price-per-unit.660355.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/iPhone-14-Pro-Max-production-i...
    - stale2002 4y ago
      You were the one who brought up the idea of "but you pay [it for] their R&D from the hardware, to the UI design, to the APIs". If you want to back to take back that argument, great. So, the whole idea of "Well you are paying for all this other stuff" is completely off the table, and you can't use it, because people pay 1400$ for the phone. So lets all just completely ignore that idea, and lets stop pretending like Apple is "owed" anything for the phone that belongs to the user. The phone belongs to the user, and they paid a fair price for it, so no Apple is not owed money for any of other stuff. > at what point is it "you cannot make money off your software on the backend"? Apple can keep doing that if they want. By competing in the free market. They just can't force people onto that anymore. They will have to actually make a better product, and hope users go to that store, instead of alternatives.
_carbyau_ 4y ago
> it'd be absurd for me to download software only through the Microsoft Store It'd be absurd for me to download software through the Microsoft Store

heavyset_go 4y ago

> Fortnite is the most obvious example. And? There are plenty of apps that are exclusive to F-Droid, as well, and the sky still hasn't fallen. Meanwhile, two companies have kept a stranglehold on all mobile app sales and mobile app payments, ensuring that businesses can't exist that can't afford a 30% cut into their margins. It's been over a decade of this insane profiteering on behalf of Apple, and in some respects Google, it's about time that the mobile app distribution market and mobile app payments market are allowed to compete and flourish.