10 ms·

I Think You're Fat (2007)

219 points by glenstein 15y ago

chrisguitarguy 15y ago
I really enjoy A.J. Jacob's writing. His books[1] are great, well worth the read if you need some fun non-fiction. 1. http://www.amazon.com/A.-J.-Jacobs/e/B000APL8HO http://www.amazon.com/A.-J.-Jacobs/e/B000APL8HO
RexRollman 15y ago
Great link. I also read Sam Harris's Kindle Single, Lying, earlier this year and enjoyed that as well.
- fingerprinter 15y ago
  I also read Lying and I thought it was really, really vapid. I would have liked Harris to go into more social techniques that allowed him to be honest without offending. Instead of that, which would have been very useful, Harris simply parroted the old "lying doesn't solve problems..." Honestly, Lying seems like something he pumped out in a short weekend because he hadn't released anything in a while. Very disappointed.
  - RexRollman 15y ago
    Personally, I like it as it was. Had it been a guide, it probably would have been much longer.
    - billswift 15y ago
      If it was worth taking seriously it also would have been much longer. Go read Sissela Bok's Lying: Moral choice in Public and Private Life then try taking Harris seriously.
      - RexRollman 15y ago
        Thanks. I'll look into it.
- jpd 15y ago
  You may also like Mark Twain's "On the Decay of the Art of Lying". link: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2572 http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2572
vnorby 15y ago
I appreciate you linking to this article but I wonder what you were doing browsing the archives of Esquire. To be honest, I did not see much of a conclusion from the article, but I enjoyed reading it. Also, I thought I would let you know that I am writing this comment to get up-voted, so that I can increase my karma. If I increase my karma, people may remember my username, and later up-vote the articles I submit about my company. That will increase traffic to my website. Eventually, the result of this will be that I become rich and famous.
- kghose 15y ago
  I started out thinking you were funny and hip for writing the comment, and then I realized you were only honest to be upvoted, and you are probably not as honest in real life and I got angry that I did not think about this first. Also, I would like to write like Hemingway.
  - mikeash 15y ago
    You're both just trying to be clever by aping the article without putting any thought into what it means.
    - kghose 15y ago
      I think we succeeded, and you are just jealous.
      - mikeash 15y ago
        This was a hilarious comment and I also enjoy this thread in general.
        kghose 15y ago
        I'm trying to decide if you really enjoyed it, or are deceiving me (us) to get upvoted. I am ashamed of myself for thinking another human being is being deceitful, when in fact he may actually be being completely honest. I am now worrying that telling complete truths is taking too much time, self-reflection and thinking to be good as a day-to-day activity.
wollw 15y ago
It isn't easy to be honest but I think that it's dangerous to do this sort of thing. Just because it's wrong to lie doesn't mean every truth should be voiced; knowing when to hold your tongue is an important skill. It might have been honest for him to tell his nanny that he was attracted to her or to tell the editor of Rachel Ray he was looking down her shirt but what good did it do? From the sound of it it only served to make them uncomfortable. The fact that it made him feel like an asshole seems to imply it wasn't making him a happier person anyway. I think it's good to strive toward total honesty, but total honesty doesn't mean saying every stupid thought that crosses your mind. Thoughts are transitory things. By voicing some of the darker ones you risk making a larger issue out of something that you might otherwise quickly forget ever crossed your mind. Just because it's true doesn't mean it's beneficial to speak.
- kghose 15y ago
  You make a good point, but a distinction should be made between fleeting (intrusive) thoughts (like you meet someone and want to punch him for no reason, or yell fire in a theater for no reason) and things you really think, but don't say. Like that you don't like marzipan, which your in-laws think you like. In some cultures (e.g. some European countries) people are very frank with each other, and that sometimes helps to clear up miscommunications more quickly. What I dislike is people who praise themselves a lot. It might be true, but I was brought up to be modest, and I feel at a disadvantage when I am with people who toot their own horn a lot. And it annoys me.
  - wollw 15y ago
    Yeah, the distinction between fleeting, intrusive thoughts and ongoing things you're afraid to mention is important. The important thing about things like telling your in-laws you don't like marzipan though is that these are the sorts of things that you should really think about before you bring them up. They aren't the sorts of things you should just voice as they come to mind... the sort of honesty this article is talking about seems to imply the thing to do is to tell your in-laws how much you hate marzipan the moment you think it in their presence which would probably be the moment they give you some. It's probably a better idea to reflect on the goodwill they're expressing toward you and formulate an appropriate response before saying anything. The difference between voicing a gut reaction like "You know, I hate marzipan" while they're handing it to you and saying something like "I appreciate the gesture but I really can't stand marzipan" is huge. Modesty, as you mention, is also a great example. There's nothing wrong with mentioning the things you've accomplished when it's relevant but it's important to know the time and place for it. You might talk about your skills and successes in a job interview for instance as it's the proper time for it but if you go on like that when you're with your friends you'll probably get tiresome.
mikeash 15y ago
My wife is the only person I'm nearly totally honest with. I won't say completely honest, but it's pretty close. Far more than I see most people be with their opposites. Sometimes it hurts her, sometimes I say something and wonder if I should have lied instead, but ultimately I think it makes everything so much healthier between us. If I'm in the middle of something and she's telling me a boring story about shopping for clothes, I'll tell her right out, I'm busy and I don't really care about your clothes shopping. She'll be annoyed but she'll also listen, and doesn't harbor any long-term resentment over it. I don't know that this would work for everyone, but I think it's a good thing to do. I don't think I have the courage to do this with everyone, though.
buss 15y ago
If you haven't figured it out already, this is a terrible, terrible idea. I tried a variant of this for about two years in college and it caused way more problems than it solved (actually, I don't think it solved any problems). Despite what you may think about the righteousness of the Truth, people get offended. People get offended at even the slightest of things. Even if they're completely obvious. We have social filters because they help people get along. The people around us don't want to know our real thoughts and opinions because they are often hurtful or awkward. It shouldn't matter, in the normal course of interaction, what I think about you, your clothes, how you talk, or what I think about anything. By filtering out some of my thoughts & opinions, I avoid pouring sand into the gears of interpersonal relationships.
- john_flintstone 15y ago
  Maybe, but I had a bad hair cut for 3 years, and I wish someone had had the balls to tell me.
  - InfinityX0 15y ago
    I think there's something to be said for telling people hurtful truths that can be quickly remedied. If broached appropriately and with a right-minded heart, I think a comment about your haircut would have been taken just fine - because of the temporarily and ability to instantly or quickly be solved, it's not as offensive, and actually, it ends up being quite helpful. Like having body odor in one moment or a huge stain on our shirt. However, if that solution takes time to be alleviated, such as being grossly overweight, ugly or simply stupid, these kinds of "honest truths" will cause true harm because they will cause strong self-esteem hits that will linger over time. I for one would be happy and want with these kind of "temporary hurtful truths" told to me. I would like to say I would be the same for the long-term ones, but I'm sure I would be truly hurt just the same.
    - FiddlerClamp 15y ago
      Regarding 'grossly overweight' - every fat person knows s/he is fat. You're not telling them anything they don't know. And you're not going to give them an incentive to lose weight by doing so.
Mz 15y ago
I'm excessively honest. It's a tough row to hoe. I've worked hard at learning to live this way without just going around being an asshole all the time. Pulling that combo off is even tougher. One key: Honesty and full disclosure are not the same thing. I am entitled to my own opinion. Other people are not entitled to my opinion (ie I do not have to tell them what it is just because I have one). Learning when to keep my big fat fucking mouth shut is a good thing. "A closed mouth gathers no feet." In short: Honesty and indiscretion are not synonyms.
- billswift 15y ago
  You might find Sissela Bok's books, Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life and Secrets, interesting. Boiled down, her arguments amount to 1) there is rarely adequate justification for lying, and 2) the problem of secrets is far more complex. The arguments are very good and well-supported.
maeon3 15y ago
Radical honesty is considered abuse, especially when your observations are 100% empirically true and spot-on and everyone can see it including the person targeted. They wrote about this problem 3000 years ago. "Correct a fool and he will hate you, correct a wise man and he will love you".
- licketysplit 15y ago
  I think you have come up with a great criteria for deciding when to be honest. As someone who has lived a very honest life I can say with confidence, it doesn't work. It's made my life less happy, not more. I still do it out of habit, and also for the feeling of moral superiority I get, but if anything I am thinking about being less honest rather than more so. It just creates too many problems, especially if you are an entrepreneur or business person.
- bbrizzi 15y ago
  Also Kant wrote about it quite a bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Moral_philosophy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Moral_philosophy
cyrus_ 15y ago
The problem with this is that because lying or omitting the truth is so common, you end up communicating more than you may intend to when you are honest and forthright. For example, it is impossible to comment about being attracted to someone without also implicitly communicating that you want to either go on a date with or sleep with them in most cultures. Or if you do the opposite and tell them you find them hideous, it is generally assumed that you must have told them this because you wanted to cause them distress. I think this whole thing could maybe work, though, if you take great care to be very aware of what you are indirectly communicating and head off those assumptions. In many cases, this may simply require that you first qualify things with "Don't take this the wrong way, since I'm trying this Radical Honesty thing, but..." or "Can I be blunt with you? [yes] I think..." In other cases, this could be more specifically addressing the feelings you expect to elicit, "I know this is going to make you feel bad, but I think it will be better for you to hear this from me now, ..."
josephcooney 15y ago
A counter-point (kind of) - On the Decay of the Art of Lying, by Mark Twain http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/lyingessay.htm http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/lyingessay.htm
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
crux_ 15y ago
So, it took a while to dig up a working link, but there's a memorable/revealing story I listened to a while ago about a visit to Brad Blanton's Radical Honesty workshop... worth a listen. mp3 link: http://fancyandawesome.com/cm/?tag=starlee-kine http://fancyandawesome.com/cm/?tag=starlee-kine Original source: The Moth podcast. (( Spoiler: it goes beyond being merely unflattering towards Blanton, to downright disturbing. ))
- sandieman 15y ago
  Great listen, puts it all into perspective. Still don't understand the cat thing!
- GFischer 15y ago
  Do you have a transcript somewhere? I can't listen to audio. Maybe there's a service for deaf people somewhere... googling I found Dragon Naturally Speaking, I wonder if that is the state of the art.
  - crux_ 15y ago
    A transcript would be nice! But I doubt there's one out there; it took a lot of trawling to find a mirror of the podcast in the first place, unfortunately.
fauldsh 15y ago
Since when were the words honest and tactless synonymous? There are plenty of ways of telling people something they don't want to hear without being incredibly blunt. This man appears to get off on the while confrontational part of not lying. I consider myself pretty honest but I don't tell people truths unless they ask my opinion or its a problem for me.
infocaptor 15y ago
This is not a new idea. In Vedic philosophy this has been preached and practiced only by realized person. In fact, practicing telling only truth one becomes realized. For e.g Gandhi adopted this practice of speaking only the truth as that is one of the limb of Yoga. What happens is the moment you take this resolve to speak only truth, your actions and thoughts become aware. So there is a very subtle refinement going internally as you keep practicing speaking the truth. But I think it is more appropriate to speak only when you are asked about it. Just telling your thoughts just for the sake of speaking truth does not make sense.
AznHisoka 15y ago
I think being honest, and talking about elephants in the room would open up some relationships. It would make people feel less alone in their thoughts. We all share similar thoughts but sometimes we feel we're weird as heck b/c we're the only one with such thoughts. For me, it's less about talking/gossiping about others, and judging others. I'm talking about universal stuff like the unfairness of life(genetic lottery), death(do 80-year olds go to bed thinking this might be the day? do older parents wake up, thinking this might be the day their parents are dead?). Opening up about what we're thinking.. not about others, but about life.
peregrine 15y ago
Single Page link http://www.esquire.com/print-this/honesty0707?page=all http://www.esquire.com/print-this/honesty0707?page=all
cafard 15y ago
Many utterances do not exist in an abstract world of truth or falsity, but imply an intention. This may vary with context. In a group therapy session, "I'd like to kick your ass." may reveal (previously) unspoken intentions and lead to a useful discussion. In a bar, late at night when everyone's been drinking it means more or less "and unless you can prove that I can't, I either shall do so or shall simply make you an object of contempt to the bystanders." In some neutral situation (is there one?) telling a woman that you are attracted to her simply conveys a fact. Telling your domestic employee this may lead to her pushing the desk against the door every night before she turns in.
mhb 15y ago
I'd recommend buying this more thoughtful version by Sam Harris for three bucks: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/lying/ http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/lying/
szopa 15y ago
It is really interesting how the socially acceptable level of honesty varies from place to place. I've recently moved from Poland to Northern California, and the expression "dancing on eggshells" describes very well my experience. In Poland, I would classify myself as maybe a little bit above the average in terms of the sort of honesty described in the article (and that mostly with people I knew very well). Here, if I don't control myself I end up being the awkward says-before-thinking guy... What bothers me most, however, isn't not being able to speak my mind; it's the lack of feedback from people around me. I am always left wondering if stuff like "I really like your other glasses" isn't actually code for "you look like an idiot in those glasses, and I am embarrassed to be seen with you on the street." I can only hope that with time I will be able to calibrate my sensors for California... (On a side note, I feel really glad to be married. Dating must be hell in California ;)
stcredzero 15y ago
"Did you get the birthday gift I sent you?" asks her stepmom. "Uh-huh," I say. She sent me a gift certificate to Saks Fifth Avenue. "And? Did you like it?" "Not really. I don't like gift certificates. It's like you're giving me an errand to run." "Well, uh . . ." Once again, I felt the thrill of inappropriate candor. If this whole thing felt "thrilling" then by my estimation, he's usually disingenuous to an extent where I'd just eliminate him from associates I feel are worthwhile. Also, the fact that he feels a gift certificate is like being "given an errand to run" indicates a level of self indulgence and laziness that would eliminate him from associates I would hire, as well as supporting the theory that he's usually too disingenuous for me to hang out with. If someone doesn't have enough balls to flat out tell me, "I got your gift certificate, but I haven't had time to go to the store yet," and feel the need to tell me the "right thing," then I can't imagine being able to depend them to tell me the truth when there's a little stress and things actually matter.
fatjokes 15y ago
Oh please. I tried this with my girlfriend months ago. It took 3 seconds to tell her she could lose a little weight, and about 3 hours to beg her not to leave me.
drumdance 15y ago
I think the Radical Honesty approach goes too far, but the kernel of truths that I've personally found useful are: 1. vulnerability (i.e. telling the truth about your feelings) promotes intimacy 2. boldly saying what you think does indeed help with picking up women
bramcohen 15y ago
Some of us had to learn to not be like this. http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/2008/11/30/28-brutal-honesty-aka-rudeness/ http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/2008/11/30/28-brutal-hone...
- GFischer 15y ago
  That's a very important point. I guess I agree with the comment that it's a "pseudo-honesty" and not the brutal honesty mentioned in your link. (comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3398217 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3398217 )
plasma 15y ago
What _is_ good is telling that girl or guy you like what you really think about them.
teyc 15y ago
Reading between the lines, Radical Honesty is a type of practice where one is constantly working to engage with every moment and every interaction, and not to always default to being "nice". Most people aren't aware of what they are thinking and how it shapes them. To be radically honest is a form of tapping into the mind stream and checking it. Through being constantly aware of the mind's contents one is in a better position to elicit interesting relationships, beyond just mere niceties.
- epo 15y ago
  So if someone comes up to one of these radically honest people and tells them they are a pretentious self-important little jerk who is too full of themselves to be worth even contemplating getting to know they will think "Oh! What a refreshingly straightforward person, I must elicit an interesting relationship with them". I don't think so.
  - teyc 15y ago
    It is a process. One doesn't become radically honest with oneself until one notices how the body physically responds to criticisms. Toastmasters is a good example where I keep noticing the better toastmasters actively solicit criticisms. Even if the message was "your speech was boring" is sufficient to prod them figure out how to improve it.
ebiester 15y ago
Has anyone watched Kathy Griffin? It's like watching this principle in action. I have a friend who similarly has very little filter, though her heart is incredibly huge. She still runs into problems with it, but she styled her life as to also include radical acceptance and live at the point where she doesn't regret what she says. It's fascinating to watch up close. I wouldn't suggest it to the average entrepreneur, however, because your silence and overstating/understating can be a large asset, especially when you have a reputation for being truthful.
troll24601 15y ago
People are not perfectly rational beings. It's irrational to ignore the realities of human emotion, perception and cognition.
erkin_unlu 15y ago
this reminds me of the great movie invention of lying. Imagine a world where there is no lying, even in the smallest sense as possible. Brutal honesty, that is. There aren't even cinemas in that world, you can imagine ; )
TamDenholm 15y ago
Personally i try not to lie whenever possible, i prefer brutal truth, i especially appreciate it when given to me, because bullshitting me doesn't help me at all, if you tell me the truth then i can learn from it, if you bullshit me, i wont realise there is a problem. However, when talking with others, i always try to stick to brutal truth, but word it in the nicest way possible, because lets face it, some people cant take radical honesty. Sometimes i will omit the biggest negative and give smaller negative as constructive criticism and suggest an improvement. While its not full on honesty, i feel its much better than just bullshitting someone.
asciimo 15y ago
Wow, this was written back when people would read more than one page.
Craiggybear 15y ago
As my grandmother used to say, it's only the truth and the truth can't hurt us - it may not be pleasant but its over and done with and we move on. But I like to balance that with William Blake: "a truth thats told with bad intent is worth all the lies you can invent"
zatara 15y ago
tl;dr: Blanton's diagnosis is right, but there might be better alternative treatments. I read the article and the books. While I have never been able to fully implement it, there is something in radical honesty that rings very true to me. I now realize it is about Blanton's diagnosis: lying will rotten your life, by forcing you to create a self that is far from your true being. Nothing new here, Di Mello and Tolle have modernly approached the same subject from different angles, while it has been covered in many philosophical and spiritual texts throughout history. But Blanton proposes a kind of shock therapy that, while possibly effective, is extremely difficult to put into daily practice. In short, by always telling the truth you will eventually build a fulfilling life, but you will have to go through a lot of drama and resentment, possibly pushing a lot of people away from you during the process. Is it possible to do it in a better way? I really don't know, but I have tried a lot of things in the last couple of years that seems to be working. It basically involves trying to build a lifestyle where I just don't need to lie anymore. Start-ups are great for that compared to other work environments, but so is moving to smaller communities, being completely open and honest with family and friends, etc. Whenever I put myself in a position where people's opinions can significantly impact my (perceived?) well-being, I find it very hard to be totally honest and close to my true self.
codinghorror 15y ago
I've read this article three times in three years and every time I love it a bit more. It's crazy advice, of course -- but there is something about it, some deeper truth, that it hints at.
ahoyhere 15y ago
"Honesty" of this sort is nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the cock of the walk, blurting out whatever little thought crosses your mind. As if you think it, it must be golden. Well, here's some honesty for you: Nobody gives a shit. Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. And if you want to have friends, you'll have to learn to act like an adult. An adult knows that compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact are far more valuable than "honesty." These traits, which are proven (research!) to be the basis of strong, long-lasting and warm relationships, are all about the OTHER person, and rightfully so. Make it all about you, on the other hand, and your precious little opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that you're an arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention. When you're an adult and you actually need to deliver an uncomfortable truth to someone you love -- for their benefit, not because you want to -- then you have to do it with compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact. That means that before you even open your mouth, or think of how to say it, you ask yourself hard & long, "Will this actually help them? Will this actually help them change? Will this be motivational? Will this DO anything for them?" -- then if the answer is anything but "Yes, absolutely," you keep your damn mouth shut. Nobody in the history of the world was helped by some egotistical, overgrown child saying "I think you're fat."
- blindhippo 15y ago
  I up-voted you because yes, you are correct and I fear people who read the article won't get it. But the article was written to highlight this - when you state honest opinions you ARE being a selfish prick. There is a point in the article when it is suggested to write "I resent it when" or "I appreciate it when" - the choice between the two is where ego can interfere. If all you communicate is resentments (as the article plays up for entertainment), people will come to view you as a negative dingus not worth talking to. But communicating honest, positive statements is what people should aim for - only going for negative when it absolutely needs to be said.
- jodrellblank 15y ago
  nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the cock of the walk. Nobody gives a shit. Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. your precious little opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that you're an arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention. Pot, meet kettle.
hackermom 15y ago
The invention of lying (2009) - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/
cq 15y ago
This might be one of the worst articles I've ever read. ""I advocate never lying in personal relationships. But if you have Anne Frank in your attic and a Nazi knocks on the door, lie....I lie to any government official." (Blanton's politics are just this side of Noam Chomsky's.)" I don't see how the quote is even remotely related to Chomsky's politics.
mathattack 15y ago
This would only work if there was one universally agreed upon truth. Our experiences color our opinions. One persons Fat is another persons 3/4 finished with a weight loss program. We all think we're above average. Rather than spending so much effort cutting each other down to get the real pecking order, isn't it better to build each other up to fit our inner ideal?
epo 15y ago
This comes from a test for Aspergers doesn't it? Only people who are incapable of comprehending their role in social relationships would think this was a good idea. Hint for the Aspies, relationships require effort on your part. These little niceties help people to like you, it shouldn't be necessary but life is a lot easier with them than without. Its like error checking in your code. In an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary, but it isn't an ideal world.
thawley 15y ago
Error – pg. 1, par. 13: There is no such thing as a "former Texan."
geden 15y ago
In my early 20's I met at a party one of my parent's friends, who hadn't seen me for 4-5 years since I'd left home for university and then my first job. He squarely greeted me with "Crikey, you're starting to look fat". It was completely out of the blue, and really hurt - initially - but it sank in and became a turning point. After that point I started eating less and realised I could no longer just eat whatever I wanted without consequence. His unusual honesty has had a direct positive effect on my health, and then indirectly those around me.
chasinjoy 15y ago
People who try this should realize that--even though they themselves may not believe it-- if 98% of society thinks you're an asshole, then you're the asshole in society. Some people are OK with this and feel it's worth the tradeoffs for the benefits of RH. Regardless, I think that people should be more honest in general.

219 points by glenstein 15y ago

I really enjoy A.J. Jacob's writing. His books[1] are great, well worth the read if you need some fun non-fiction. 1. http://www.amazon.com/A.-J.-Jacobs/e/B000APL8HO http://www.amazon.com/A.-J.-Jacobs/e/B000APL8HO

RexRollman 15y ago

Great link. I also read Sam Harris's Kindle Single, Lying, earlier this year and enjoyed that as well.

fingerprinter 15y ago
I also read Lying and I thought it was really, really vapid. I would have liked Harris to go into more social techniques that allowed him to be honest without offending. Instead of that, which would have been very useful, Harris simply parroted the old "lying doesn't solve problems..." Honestly, Lying seems like something he pumped out in a short weekend because he hadn't released anything in a while. Very disappointed.
- RexRollman 15y ago
  Personally, I like it as it was. Had it been a guide, it probably would have been much longer.
  - billswift 15y ago
    If it was worth taking seriously it also would have been much longer. Go read Sissela Bok's Lying: Moral choice in Public and Private Life then try taking Harris seriously.
    - RexRollman 15y ago
      Thanks. I'll look into it.
jpd 15y ago
You may also like Mark Twain's "On the Decay of the Art of Lying". link: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2572 http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2572

vnorby 15y ago

I appreciate you linking to this article but I wonder what you were doing browsing the archives of Esquire. To be honest, I did not see much of a conclusion from the article, but I enjoyed reading it. Also, I thought I would let you know that I am writing this comment to get up-voted, so that I can increase my karma. If I increase my karma, people may remember my username, and later up-vote the articles I submit about my company. That will increase traffic to my website. Eventually, the result of this will be that I become rich and famous.

kghose 15y ago
I started out thinking you were funny and hip for writing the comment, and then I realized you were only honest to be upvoted, and you are probably not as honest in real life and I got angry that I did not think about this first. Also, I would like to write like Hemingway.
- mikeash 15y ago
  You're both just trying to be clever by aping the article without putting any thought into what it means.
  - kghose 15y ago
    I think we succeeded, and you are just jealous.
    - mikeash 15y ago
      This was a hilarious comment and I also enjoy this thread in general.
      - kghose 15y ago
        I'm trying to decide if you really enjoyed it, or are deceiving me (us) to get upvoted. I am ashamed of myself for thinking another human being is being deceitful, when in fact he may actually be being completely honest. I am now worrying that telling complete truths is taking too much time, self-reflection and thinking to be good as a day-to-day activity.

wollw 15y ago

It isn't easy to be honest but I think that it's dangerous to do this sort of thing. Just because it's wrong to lie doesn't mean every truth should be voiced; knowing when to hold your tongue is an important skill. It might have been honest for him to tell his nanny that he was attracted to her or to tell the editor of Rachel Ray he was looking down her shirt but what good did it do? From the sound of it it only served to make them uncomfortable. The fact that it made him feel like an asshole seems to imply it wasn't making him a happier person anyway. I think it's good to strive toward total honesty, but total honesty doesn't mean saying every stupid thought that crosses your mind. Thoughts are transitory things. By voicing some of the darker ones you risk making a larger issue out of something that you might otherwise quickly forget ever crossed your mind. Just because it's true doesn't mean it's beneficial to speak.

kghose 15y ago
You make a good point, but a distinction should be made between fleeting (intrusive) thoughts (like you meet someone and want to punch him for no reason, or yell fire in a theater for no reason) and things you really think, but don't say. Like that you don't like marzipan, which your in-laws think you like. In some cultures (e.g. some European countries) people are very frank with each other, and that sometimes helps to clear up miscommunications more quickly. What I dislike is people who praise themselves a lot. It might be true, but I was brought up to be modest, and I feel at a disadvantage when I am with people who toot their own horn a lot. And it annoys me.
- wollw 15y ago
  Yeah, the distinction between fleeting, intrusive thoughts and ongoing things you're afraid to mention is important. The important thing about things like telling your in-laws you don't like marzipan though is that these are the sorts of things that you should really think about before you bring them up. They aren't the sorts of things you should just voice as they come to mind... the sort of honesty this article is talking about seems to imply the thing to do is to tell your in-laws how much you hate marzipan the moment you think it in their presence which would probably be the moment they give you some. It's probably a better idea to reflect on the goodwill they're expressing toward you and formulate an appropriate response before saying anything. The difference between voicing a gut reaction like "You know, I hate marzipan" while they're handing it to you and saying something like "I appreciate the gesture but I really can't stand marzipan" is huge. Modesty, as you mention, is also a great example. There's nothing wrong with mentioning the things you've accomplished when it's relevant but it's important to know the time and place for it. You might talk about your skills and successes in a job interview for instance as it's the proper time for it but if you go on like that when you're with your friends you'll probably get tiresome.

mikeash 15y ago

My wife is the only person I'm nearly totally honest with. I won't say completely honest, but it's pretty close. Far more than I see most people be with their opposites. Sometimes it hurts her, sometimes I say something and wonder if I should have lied instead, but ultimately I think it makes everything so much healthier between us. If I'm in the middle of something and she's telling me a boring story about shopping for clothes, I'll tell her right out, I'm busy and I don't really care about your clothes shopping. She'll be annoyed but she'll also listen, and doesn't harbor any long-term resentment over it. I don't know that this would work for everyone, but I think it's a good thing to do. I don't think I have the courage to do this with everyone, though.

buss 15y ago

If you haven't figured it out already, this is a terrible, terrible idea. I tried a variant of this for about two years in college and it caused way more problems than it solved (actually, I don't think it solved any problems). Despite what you may think about the righteousness of the Truth, people get offended. People get offended at even the slightest of things. Even if they're completely obvious. We have social filters because they help people get along. The people around us don't want to know our real thoughts and opinions because they are often hurtful or awkward. It shouldn't matter, in the normal course of interaction, what I think about you, your clothes, how you talk, or what I think about anything. By filtering out some of my thoughts & opinions, I avoid pouring sand into the gears of interpersonal relationships.

john_flintstone 15y ago
Maybe, but I had a bad hair cut for 3 years, and I wish someone had had the balls to tell me.
- InfinityX0 15y ago
  I think there's something to be said for telling people hurtful truths that can be quickly remedied. If broached appropriately and with a right-minded heart, I think a comment about your haircut would have been taken just fine - because of the temporarily and ability to instantly or quickly be solved, it's not as offensive, and actually, it ends up being quite helpful. Like having body odor in one moment or a huge stain on our shirt. However, if that solution takes time to be alleviated, such as being grossly overweight, ugly or simply stupid, these kinds of "honest truths" will cause true harm because they will cause strong self-esteem hits that will linger over time. I for one would be happy and want with these kind of "temporary hurtful truths" told to me. I would like to say I would be the same for the long-term ones, but I'm sure I would be truly hurt just the same.
  - FiddlerClamp 15y ago
    Regarding 'grossly overweight' - every fat person knows s/he is fat. You're not telling them anything they don't know. And you're not going to give them an incentive to lose weight by doing so.

Mz 15y ago

I'm excessively honest. It's a tough row to hoe. I've worked hard at learning to live this way without just going around being an asshole all the time. Pulling that combo off is even tougher. One key: Honesty and full disclosure are not the same thing. I am entitled to my own opinion. Other people are not entitled to my opinion (ie I do not have to tell them what it is just because I have one). Learning when to keep my big fat fucking mouth shut is a good thing. "A closed mouth gathers no feet." In short: Honesty and indiscretion are not synonyms.

billswift 15y ago
You might find Sissela Bok's books, Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life and Secrets, interesting. Boiled down, her arguments amount to 1) there is rarely adequate justification for lying, and 2) the problem of secrets is far more complex. The arguments are very good and well-supported.

maeon3 15y ago

Radical honesty is considered abuse, especially when your observations are 100% empirically true and spot-on and everyone can see it including the person targeted. They wrote about this problem 3000 years ago. "Correct a fool and he will hate you, correct a wise man and he will love you".

licketysplit 15y ago
I think you have come up with a great criteria for deciding when to be honest. As someone who has lived a very honest life I can say with confidence, it doesn't work. It's made my life less happy, not more. I still do it out of habit, and also for the feeling of moral superiority I get, but if anything I am thinking about being less honest rather than more so. It just creates too many problems, especially if you are an entrepreneur or business person.
bbrizzi 15y ago
Also Kant wrote about it quite a bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Moral_philosophy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Moral_philosophy

cyrus_ 15y ago

The problem with this is that because lying or omitting the truth is so common, you end up communicating more than you may intend to when you are honest and forthright. For example, it is impossible to comment about being attracted to someone without also implicitly communicating that you want to either go on a date with or sleep with them in most cultures. Or if you do the opposite and tell them you find them hideous, it is generally assumed that you must have told them this because you wanted to cause them distress. I think this whole thing could maybe work, though, if you take great care to be very aware of what you are indirectly communicating and head off those assumptions. In many cases, this may simply require that you first qualify things with "Don't take this the wrong way, since I'm trying this Radical Honesty thing, but..." or "Can I be blunt with you? [yes] I think..." In other cases, this could be more specifically addressing the feelings you expect to elicit, "I know this is going to make you feel bad, but I think it will be better for you to hear this from me now, ..."

josephcooney 15y ago

A counter-point (kind of) - On the Decay of the Art of Lying, by Mark Twain http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/lyingessay.htm http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/lyingessay.htm

deleted 15y ago

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crux_ 15y ago

So, it took a while to dig up a working link, but there's a memorable/revealing story I listened to a while ago about a visit to Brad Blanton's Radical Honesty workshop... worth a listen. mp3 link: http://fancyandawesome.com/cm/?tag=starlee-kine http://fancyandawesome.com/cm/?tag=starlee-kine Original source: The Moth podcast. (( Spoiler: it goes beyond being merely unflattering towards Blanton, to downright disturbing. ))

sandieman 15y ago
Great listen, puts it all into perspective. Still don't understand the cat thing!
GFischer 15y ago
Do you have a transcript somewhere? I can't listen to audio. Maybe there's a service for deaf people somewhere... googling I found Dragon Naturally Speaking, I wonder if that is the state of the art.
- crux_ 15y ago
  A transcript would be nice! But I doubt there's one out there; it took a lot of trawling to find a mirror of the podcast in the first place, unfortunately.

fauldsh 15y ago

Since when were the words honest and tactless synonymous? There are plenty of ways of telling people something they don't want to hear without being incredibly blunt. This man appears to get off on the while confrontational part of not lying. I consider myself pretty honest but I don't tell people truths unless they ask my opinion or its a problem for me.

infocaptor 15y ago

This is not a new idea. In Vedic philosophy this has been preached and practiced only by realized person. In fact, practicing telling only truth one becomes realized. For e.g Gandhi adopted this practice of speaking only the truth as that is one of the limb of Yoga. What happens is the moment you take this resolve to speak only truth, your actions and thoughts become aware. So there is a very subtle refinement going internally as you keep practicing speaking the truth. But I think it is more appropriate to speak only when you are asked about it. Just telling your thoughts just for the sake of speaking truth does not make sense.

AznHisoka 15y ago

I think being honest, and talking about elephants in the room would open up some relationships. It would make people feel less alone in their thoughts. We all share similar thoughts but sometimes we feel we're weird as heck b/c we're the only one with such thoughts. For me, it's less about talking/gossiping about others, and judging others. I'm talking about universal stuff like the unfairness of life(genetic lottery), death(do 80-year olds go to bed thinking this might be the day? do older parents wake up, thinking this might be the day their parents are dead?). Opening up about what we're thinking.. not about others, but about life.

peregrine 15y ago

Single Page link http://www.esquire.com/print-this/honesty0707?page=all http://www.esquire.com/print-this/honesty0707?page=all

cafard 15y ago

Many utterances do not exist in an abstract world of truth or falsity, but imply an intention. This may vary with context. In a group therapy session, "I'd like to kick your ass." may reveal (previously) unspoken intentions and lead to a useful discussion. In a bar, late at night when everyone's been drinking it means more or less "and unless you can prove that I can't, I either shall do so or shall simply make you an object of contempt to the bystanders." In some neutral situation (is there one?) telling a woman that you are attracted to her simply conveys a fact. Telling your domestic employee this may lead to her pushing the desk against the door every night before she turns in.

mhb 15y ago

I'd recommend buying this more thoughtful version by Sam Harris for three bucks: http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/lying/ http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/lying/

szopa 15y ago

It is really interesting how the socially acceptable level of honesty varies from place to place. I've recently moved from Poland to Northern California, and the expression "dancing on eggshells" describes very well my experience. In Poland, I would classify myself as maybe a little bit above the average in terms of the sort of honesty described in the article (and that mostly with people I knew very well). Here, if I don't control myself I end up being the awkward says-before-thinking guy... What bothers me most, however, isn't not being able to speak my mind; it's the lack of feedback from people around me. I am always left wondering if stuff like "I really like your other glasses" isn't actually code for "you look like an idiot in those glasses, and I am embarrassed to be seen with you on the street." I can only hope that with time I will be able to calibrate my sensors for California... (On a side note, I feel really glad to be married. Dating must be hell in California ;)

stcredzero 15y ago

"Did you get the birthday gift I sent you?" asks her stepmom. "Uh-huh," I say. She sent me a gift certificate to Saks Fifth Avenue. "And? Did you like it?" "Not really. I don't like gift certificates. It's like you're giving me an errand to run." "Well, uh . . ." Once again, I felt the thrill of inappropriate candor. If this whole thing felt "thrilling" then by my estimation, he's usually disingenuous to an extent where I'd just eliminate him from associates I feel are worthwhile. Also, the fact that he feels a gift certificate is like being "given an errand to run" indicates a level of self indulgence and laziness that would eliminate him from associates I would hire, as well as supporting the theory that he's usually too disingenuous for me to hang out with. If someone doesn't have enough balls to flat out tell me, "I got your gift certificate, but I haven't had time to go to the store yet," and feel the need to tell me the "right thing," then I can't imagine being able to depend them to tell me the truth when there's a little stress and things actually matter.

fatjokes 15y ago

Oh please. I tried this with my girlfriend months ago. It took 3 seconds to tell her she could lose a little weight, and about 3 hours to beg her not to leave me.

drumdance 15y ago

I think the Radical Honesty approach goes too far, but the kernel of truths that I've personally found useful are: 1. vulnerability (i.e. telling the truth about your feelings) promotes intimacy 2. boldly saying what you think does indeed help with picking up women

bramcohen 15y ago

Some of us had to learn to not be like this. http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/2008/11/30/28-brutal-honesty-aka-rudeness/ http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/2008/11/30/28-brutal-hone...

GFischer 15y ago
That's a very important point. I guess I agree with the comment that it's a "pseudo-honesty" and not the brutal honesty mentioned in your link. (comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3398217 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3398217 )

plasma 15y ago

What _is_ good is telling that girl or guy you like what you really think about them.

teyc 15y ago

Reading between the lines, Radical Honesty is a type of practice where one is constantly working to engage with every moment and every interaction, and not to always default to being "nice". Most people aren't aware of what they are thinking and how it shapes them. To be radically honest is a form of tapping into the mind stream and checking it. Through being constantly aware of the mind's contents one is in a better position to elicit interesting relationships, beyond just mere niceties.

epo 15y ago
So if someone comes up to one of these radically honest people and tells them they are a pretentious self-important little jerk who is too full of themselves to be worth even contemplating getting to know they will think "Oh! What a refreshingly straightforward person, I must elicit an interesting relationship with them". I don't think so.
- teyc 15y ago
  It is a process. One doesn't become radically honest with oneself until one notices how the body physically responds to criticisms. Toastmasters is a good example where I keep noticing the better toastmasters actively solicit criticisms. Even if the message was "your speech was boring" is sufficient to prod them figure out how to improve it.

ebiester 15y ago

Has anyone watched Kathy Griffin? It's like watching this principle in action. I have a friend who similarly has very little filter, though her heart is incredibly huge. She still runs into problems with it, but she styled her life as to also include radical acceptance and live at the point where she doesn't regret what she says. It's fascinating to watch up close. I wouldn't suggest it to the average entrepreneur, however, because your silence and overstating/understating can be a large asset, especially when you have a reputation for being truthful.

troll24601 15y ago

People are not perfectly rational beings. It's irrational to ignore the realities of human emotion, perception and cognition.

erkin_unlu 15y ago

this reminds me of the great movie invention of lying. Imagine a world where there is no lying, even in the smallest sense as possible. Brutal honesty, that is. There aren't even cinemas in that world, you can imagine ; )

TamDenholm 15y ago

Personally i try not to lie whenever possible, i prefer brutal truth, i especially appreciate it when given to me, because bullshitting me doesn't help me at all, if you tell me the truth then i can learn from it, if you bullshit me, i wont realise there is a problem. However, when talking with others, i always try to stick to brutal truth, but word it in the nicest way possible, because lets face it, some people cant take radical honesty. Sometimes i will omit the biggest negative and give smaller negative as constructive criticism and suggest an improvement. While its not full on honesty, i feel its much better than just bullshitting someone.

asciimo 15y ago

Wow, this was written back when people would read more than one page.

Craiggybear 15y ago

As my grandmother used to say, it's only the truth and the truth can't hurt us - it may not be pleasant but its over and done with and we move on. But I like to balance that with William Blake: "a truth thats told with bad intent is worth all the lies you can invent"

zatara 15y ago

tl;dr: Blanton's diagnosis is right, but there might be better alternative treatments. I read the article and the books. While I have never been able to fully implement it, there is something in radical honesty that rings very true to me. I now realize it is about Blanton's diagnosis: lying will rotten your life, by forcing you to create a self that is far from your true being. Nothing new here, Di Mello and Tolle have modernly approached the same subject from different angles, while it has been covered in many philosophical and spiritual texts throughout history. But Blanton proposes a kind of shock therapy that, while possibly effective, is extremely difficult to put into daily practice. In short, by always telling the truth you will eventually build a fulfilling life, but you will have to go through a lot of drama and resentment, possibly pushing a lot of people away from you during the process. Is it possible to do it in a better way? I really don't know, but I have tried a lot of things in the last couple of years that seems to be working. It basically involves trying to build a lifestyle where I just don't need to lie anymore. Start-ups are great for that compared to other work environments, but so is moving to smaller communities, being completely open and honest with family and friends, etc. Whenever I put myself in a position where people's opinions can significantly impact my (perceived?) well-being, I find it very hard to be totally honest and close to my true self.

codinghorror 15y ago

I've read this article three times in three years and every time I love it a bit more. It's crazy advice, of course -- but there is something about it, some deeper truth, that it hints at.

ahoyhere 15y ago

"Honesty" of this sort is nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the cock of the walk, blurting out whatever little thought crosses your mind. As if you think it, it must be golden. Well, here's some honesty for you: Nobody gives a shit. Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. And if you want to have friends, you'll have to learn to act like an adult. An adult knows that compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact are far more valuable than "honesty." These traits, which are proven (research!) to be the basis of strong, long-lasting and warm relationships, are all about the OTHER person, and rightfully so. Make it all about you, on the other hand, and your precious little opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that you're an arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention. When you're an adult and you actually need to deliver an uncomfortable truth to someone you love -- for their benefit, not because you want to -- then you have to do it with compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact. That means that before you even open your mouth, or think of how to say it, you ask yourself hard & long, "Will this actually help them? Will this actually help them change? Will this be motivational? Will this DO anything for them?" -- then if the answer is anything but "Yes, absolutely," you keep your damn mouth shut. Nobody in the history of the world was helped by some egotistical, overgrown child saying "I think you're fat."

blindhippo 15y ago
I up-voted you because yes, you are correct and I fear people who read the article won't get it. But the article was written to highlight this - when you state honest opinions you ARE being a selfish prick. There is a point in the article when it is suggested to write "I resent it when" or "I appreciate it when" - the choice between the two is where ego can interfere. If all you communicate is resentments (as the article plays up for entertainment), people will come to view you as a negative dingus not worth talking to. But communicating honest, positive statements is what people should aim for - only going for negative when it absolutely needs to be said.
jodrellblank 15y ago
nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the cock of the walk. Nobody gives a shit. Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. your precious little opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that you're an arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention. Pot, meet kettle.

hackermom 15y ago

The invention of lying (2009) - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/

cq 15y ago

This might be one of the worst articles I've ever read. ""I advocate never lying in personal relationships. But if you have Anne Frank in your attic and a Nazi knocks on the door, lie....I lie to any government official." (Blanton's politics are just this side of Noam Chomsky's.)" I don't see how the quote is even remotely related to Chomsky's politics.

mathattack 15y ago

This would only work if there was one universally agreed upon truth. Our experiences color our opinions. One persons Fat is another persons 3/4 finished with a weight loss program. We all think we're above average. Rather than spending so much effort cutting each other down to get the real pecking order, isn't it better to build each other up to fit our inner ideal?

epo 15y ago

This comes from a test for Aspergers doesn't it? Only people who are incapable of comprehending their role in social relationships would think this was a good idea. Hint for the Aspies, relationships require effort on your part. These little niceties help people to like you, it shouldn't be necessary but life is a lot easier with them than without. Its like error checking in your code. In an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary, but it isn't an ideal world.

thawley 15y ago

Error – pg. 1, par. 13: There is no such thing as a "former Texan."

geden 15y ago

In my early 20's I met at a party one of my parent's friends, who hadn't seen me for 4-5 years since I'd left home for university and then my first job. He squarely greeted me with "Crikey, you're starting to look fat". It was completely out of the blue, and really hurt - initially - but it sank in and became a turning point. After that point I started eating less and realised I could no longer just eat whatever I wanted without consequence. His unusual honesty has had a direct positive effect on my health, and then indirectly those around me.

chasinjoy 15y ago

People who try this should realize that--even though they themselves may not believe it-- if 98% of society thinks you're an asshole, then you're the asshole in society. Some people are OK with this and feel it's worth the tradeoffs for the benefits of RH. Regardless, I think that people should be more honest in general.