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As a linux user, I don't like how Apple gets to decide every app that can be installed on iOS. I like the ability to install any program I choose. This alone is

by jarbus 4y ago

As a linux user, I don't like how Apple gets to decide every app that can be installed on iOS. I like the ability to install any program I choose. This alone is enough for me. Currently, I use a linux emulator, iSH, on my iPad, but I'm really worried that at any moment apple could make it unusable for me because it can run arbitrary programs, which they stated they are directly against.

FredPret 4y ago
But in this wonderful thing called the free market, you can simply not buy Apple things
- blep_ 4y ago
  Switching phone ecosystems is a hell of a lot harder and more expensive than installing an app. (And the Android ecosystem is honestly not good either.)
- everfree 4y ago
  In what way is mobile phone software a free market? "Simply not buy Apple things" means "buy Google things." There's no way around that if you want a functional smart phone. You either pick red or blue. If there were 5-10 full-featured phone OSes out there, your point would make more sense to me.
  - andiareso 4y ago
    Yea I don't get the argument of "Just don't use Apple" You can like the hardware and not care for the software. It really is A/B at the moment. It's difficult for the average user to choose C. You either allow Google to peer into your life, or trust that Apple's marketing isn't a gimmick and a lot of Apple is e2e encrypted. From what I read, iCloud backups are finally getting e2e encryption. I see this as the biggest reason to stick with Apple. I trade off full-customizability for better security/experience. If a jailbreak was available for my iPhone, I'd be on it though.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      > From what I read, iCloud backups are finally getting e2e encryption. Yes, but only as secure as the passphrase you use to unlock your phone. Except actually less secure than that; your phone will rate limit attempts to guess your passphrase, but encrypted iCloud backups turned over to a government won't and can't rate limit attempts. For the average user with a relatively short passphrase, iCloud backups will be trivial to crack. Still, it's an improvement.
      - DCKing 4y ago
        You seem to think that your phone's pin is used directly as some sort of encryption key for cloud backups, but that's not how these systems work. Your pin or face or fingerprint unlocks your phone's secure element, and the secure element contains a randomly generated high entropy encryption key for your data. This is why you can casually change your pin code in your phone's settings without it chewing through your battery and data plan reencrypting and reuploading gigabytes of cloud data.
      - everfree 4y ago
        In addition to what DCKing said, you can effectively rate-limit password attempts on encrypted data by deriving the key using a cryptographic hashing function such as bcrypt with a high amount of iterations.
  - mrmanner 4y ago
    What does full-featured mean to you? There’s a bunch of non-google Android distros that seem full featured to me. Same with Sailfish, at least when I last used it some years ago. No big corporate support, less commercial apps packaged by default, but that’s a feature in itself.
    - ubercow13 4y ago
      Supporting commercial apps like banking apps for example. Many financial institutions are now app-only in the UK.
    - everfree 4y ago
      To me, full-featured means that I can install a ridesharing app, social media/chat apps, a podcast app, a maps app with live traffic updates and turn-by-turn directions, and popular streaming music and video apps. Bonus points for supporting contactless payments, banking apps, and airline apps. The hardware should have decent battery life and get great cell reception, and the UI should be smooth.
- stale2002 4y ago
  Indeed the free market is great. And you will continue to have the ability to only use the Apple App store, if you so chose. You are prohibiting from crying or complaining about this by your own logic. You are free to not install an alternative app stores, and cannot use any arguments at all about how your choice is restricted.
behnamoh 4y ago
> As a linux user... You answered yourself. Most people are not Linuxy in the sense that they buy an iPhone and don't want to know how everything works.
- MSFT_Edging 4y ago
  I'm in a similar boat. I bought an ipad because its simply the best tablet and actually gets attention. I didn't want a chromeOS or Windows device. The ipad for me is about 80% there and the other 20% is just not what apple wants. If this would push that other 20%, I might even consider switching from Android. As it stands, Android has a lot of free trash on the play store, and Iphone has a lot of paid trash on the app store because apple charges them hundreds per year for the honor of developing on their platform. On Android, when I need an app with basic functionality, I already check fdroid first for a simple OSS implementation. I don't need my voice recorder to do anything except record audio. I don't need my heart beat monitor to do anything but check my pulse. I'm hoping this change brings the type of innovation early jailbreak app stores brought that basically test drove features that Apple would copy years later and call "innovative".
mrmanner 4y ago
As a Linux user, I love that there’s a kind of device I can recommend my non-technical friends and family without worrying too much about their safety or privacy. Is it perfect? No. But the risk that they’re fooled into installing a malicious app is still a lot lower than with mandated side loading and app stores with lax oversight. I.e the gatekeeping my government wants to prohibit is the reason I’ve been recommending these things. I guess I’ll have to switch to recommending AwareGo security training for everyone
- everfree 4y ago
  > mandated side loading In what respect does any phone currently on the market have "mandated side loading"?
  - mrmanner 4y ago
    Probably nothing currently on the market - we’re discussing a law that’s in effect from 2024
    - everfree 4y ago
      Then my question is: Why do you believe that relaxing app requirements on iOS would cause mandated side-loading, given that it's not a problem for anything else currently on the market?
      - mrmanner 4y ago
        My point was that the possibility to side load apps is becoming mandatory, and that that possibility comes with a risk. I don’t think people will be forced to side load things, sorry if I didn’t express myself properly
  - someweirdperson 4y ago
    Government-mandated (usually in selected specific cases) spyware trojans are not installed through any of the app stores.

by jarbus 4y ago

FredPret 4y ago

But in this wonderful thing called the free market, you can simply not buy Apple things

blep_ 4y ago
Switching phone ecosystems is a hell of a lot harder and more expensive than installing an app. (And the Android ecosystem is honestly not good either.)
everfree 4y ago
In what way is mobile phone software a free market? "Simply not buy Apple things" means "buy Google things." There's no way around that if you want a functional smart phone. You either pick red or blue. If there were 5-10 full-featured phone OSes out there, your point would make more sense to me.
- andiareso 4y ago
  Yea I don't get the argument of "Just don't use Apple" You can like the hardware and not care for the software. It really is A/B at the moment. It's difficult for the average user to choose C. You either allow Google to peer into your life, or trust that Apple's marketing isn't a gimmick and a lot of Apple is e2e encrypted. From what I read, iCloud backups are finally getting e2e encryption. I see this as the biggest reason to stick with Apple. I trade off full-customizability for better security/experience. If a jailbreak was available for my iPhone, I'd be on it though.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    > From what I read, iCloud backups are finally getting e2e encryption. Yes, but only as secure as the passphrase you use to unlock your phone. Except actually less secure than that; your phone will rate limit attempts to guess your passphrase, but encrypted iCloud backups turned over to a government won't and can't rate limit attempts. For the average user with a relatively short passphrase, iCloud backups will be trivial to crack. Still, it's an improvement.
    - DCKing 4y ago
      You seem to think that your phone's pin is used directly as some sort of encryption key for cloud backups, but that's not how these systems work. Your pin or face or fingerprint unlocks your phone's secure element, and the secure element contains a randomly generated high entropy encryption key for your data. This is why you can casually change your pin code in your phone's settings without it chewing through your battery and data plan reencrypting and reuploading gigabytes of cloud data.
    - everfree 4y ago
      In addition to what DCKing said, you can effectively rate-limit password attempts on encrypted data by deriving the key using a cryptographic hashing function such as bcrypt with a high amount of iterations.
- mrmanner 4y ago
  What does full-featured mean to you? There’s a bunch of non-google Android distros that seem full featured to me. Same with Sailfish, at least when I last used it some years ago. No big corporate support, less commercial apps packaged by default, but that’s a feature in itself.
  - ubercow13 4y ago
    Supporting commercial apps like banking apps for example. Many financial institutions are now app-only in the UK.
  - everfree 4y ago
    To me, full-featured means that I can install a ridesharing app, social media/chat apps, a podcast app, a maps app with live traffic updates and turn-by-turn directions, and popular streaming music and video apps. Bonus points for supporting contactless payments, banking apps, and airline apps. The hardware should have decent battery life and get great cell reception, and the UI should be smooth.
stale2002 4y ago
Indeed the free market is great. And you will continue to have the ability to only use the Apple App store, if you so chose. You are prohibiting from crying or complaining about this by your own logic. You are free to not install an alternative app stores, and cannot use any arguments at all about how your choice is restricted.

behnamoh 4y ago

> As a linux user... You answered yourself. Most people are not Linuxy in the sense that they buy an iPhone and don't want to know how everything works.

MSFT_Edging 4y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I bought an ipad because its simply the best tablet and actually gets attention. I didn't want a chromeOS or Windows device. The ipad for me is about 80% there and the other 20% is just not what apple wants. If this would push that other 20%, I might even consider switching from Android. As it stands, Android has a lot of free trash on the play store, and Iphone has a lot of paid trash on the app store because apple charges them hundreds per year for the honor of developing on their platform. On Android, when I need an app with basic functionality, I already check fdroid first for a simple OSS implementation. I don't need my voice recorder to do anything except record audio. I don't need my heart beat monitor to do anything but check my pulse. I'm hoping this change brings the type of innovation early jailbreak app stores brought that basically test drove features that Apple would copy years later and call "innovative".

mrmanner 4y ago

As a Linux user, I love that there’s a kind of device I can recommend my non-technical friends and family without worrying too much about their safety or privacy. Is it perfect? No. But the risk that they’re fooled into installing a malicious app is still a lot lower than with mandated side loading and app stores with lax oversight. I.e the gatekeeping my government wants to prohibit is the reason I’ve been recommending these things. I guess I’ll have to switch to recommending AwareGo security training for everyone

everfree 4y ago
> mandated side loading In what respect does any phone currently on the market have "mandated side loading"?
- mrmanner 4y ago
  Probably nothing currently on the market - we’re discussing a law that’s in effect from 2024
  - everfree 4y ago
    Then my question is: Why do you believe that relaxing app requirements on iOS would cause mandated side-loading, given that it's not a problem for anything else currently on the market?
    - mrmanner 4y ago
      My point was that the possibility to side load apps is becoming mandatory, and that that possibility comes with a risk. I don’t think people will be forced to side load things, sorry if I didn’t express myself properly
- someweirdperson 4y ago
  Government-mandated (usually in selected specific cases) spyware trojans are not installed through any of the app stores.