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> Anyone... please tell me how this actually benefits ME as a consumer and not developers? 1) Developers already raise the prices for apps/subscriptions in iOS

by Me1000 4y ago

> Anyone... please tell me how this actually benefits ME as a consumer and not developers? 1) Developers already raise the prices for apps/subscriptions in iOS (vs, say, the web) to offset Apple's cut. 2) Developers will be able to offer refunds more easily (something that continues to be ridiculously hard with the App Store). 3) The App Store only allows free trials for subscriptions. They don't offer free trials before a one time payment to buy the app. A 3rd party store could allow that. 4) Certain kinds of apps that Apple doesn't allow on the App Store would presumably be allowed on other stores. 5) Apple will finally be forced to compete now that the App Store has competition. It might even mean that all the points I made above become moot. I'm not saying there won't be any potential downsides, but that's the whole point of competition, it's a tradeoff you can make. As a user you can choose to only use the Apple App Store if you want. Since most users will only use the official store, it seems unlikely that many mainstream apps would consider dropping it entirely.

shagie 4y ago
> 2) Developers will be able to offer refunds more easily (something that continues to be ridiculously hard with the App Store). I would counter that its really easy compared to most other systems. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084 I had an occasion where my phone was loaned to my (young at that time) nephew on a car trip and since it was my phone (and only my phone) I had rather permissive purchase checks on it. He bought a bunch of in app purchase stuff for Talking Tom (owned by a Chinese company). I filled out the form, and got a refund. I believe that it was much easier than trying to get a refund from the developer.
- Me1000 4y ago
  Here's an example a friend of mine ran into recently: They sold their company and shut down their service for which they charged monthly/yearly subscriptions. They had a decent relationship with Apple, so they emailed their contact and notified them that they'd like to issue refunds to all their users. Apple said that users had to do it themselves. That wouldn't be so bad, but there's (as I understand it) some restrictions on Apple offering refunds for subscriptions, for example if you're 25 days into a 30 day subscription period, Apple won't allow users to request a refund. This caused users to get angry at my friend and their company. If they had been using any other payment service other than the App Store, they could have just automatically issued refunds to all their users.
  - shagie 4y ago
    The difference that we're seeing here is a "user can request a refund easily" vs "developer can refund something to a user." Apple balances on the assumption of the stability of their developers offering subscriptions and an easier experience for a user requesting a refund. The difficulty that the developer is having in this case is that Apple isn't exposing the payment information to the developer. If they can say "this user gets a refund" that is leaking some information about the users to developers. (...) Additionally, it appears that there were some new methods added to the in-app library for developers to be able to create a refund request on behalf of a user. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transaction/3803220-beginrefundrequest https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transacti... > Call this function from account settings or a help menu to enable customers to request a refund for an in-app purchase within your app. When you call this function, the system displays a refund sheet with the customer’s purchase details and list of reason codes for the customer to choose from.
    - jacobr1 4y ago
      Apple could still act as an indirect facilitator - send apple the money and they refund it on your behalf. I'm sure there are many reasons why this is complicated, but I don't see any fundamental reasons this couldn't be done if Apple want to enable it.
    - saurik 4y ago
      Sure, but that obviously isn't what people were talking about with respect to developers giving refunds. I provided that feature to developers in Cydia and gave refunds directly to users and it was still appreciated by all to have that feature. Regardless, to address your (off-topic) addition: do you actually request refunds from Apple often enough to be willing to pay 10% more for the privilege? You'd have to be asking for refunds for 1 out of every 10 products you buy for that to make sense...
- bdcravens 4y ago
  You're talking about 2 different things. The platform providing refunds doesn't obviate the need for the developer to have the same option.
  - shagie 4y ago
    A developer can issue a refund request on behalf of a user - its just that they can't do the refund themselves because the developer doesn't hold tokens for processing the payment. Doing so gets into issues of PCI and user privacy. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transaction/3803220-beginrefundrequest https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transacti...
nerdjon 4y ago
> As a user you can choose to only use the Apple App Store if you want. Since most users will only use the official store, it seems unlikely that many mainstream apps would consider dropping it entirely. That right there is my problem with this. We can't even definitively say that it isn't possible. Doesn't Epic do it on Android? A big enough company (like Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon) could easily push their store as being the primary way to download their apps. Start out on both at first but gradually introduce incentives for the users to redownload somewhere else. Then suddenly that App Store is on their phone, other developers see the App Store being used a lot and more and more developers stop using the App Store because they can get around these protections that I get as a user. If somehow developers were still required to be on the App Store, fine. I would have no issue with it. But I just don't see developers doing it. Too many already try to employ dark patterns on there website that given a chance there is no way they won't try to do them on mobile. Many already try (like with the prompts to permit app tracking) but are limited in what they can do.
- runnerup 4y ago
  > A big enough company (like Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon) could easily push their store Or any shitty IoT company. When people pay $400 for an instant pot or $800 for a robot vacuum or electric scooter they’ll download any spyware app to make it run. Plenty already required sideloading apk’s on Android.
  - nerdjon 4y ago
    I honestly didn't even think about that, buying some product only to find that the app for it is on another store. I mean most likely would not happen until another big enough store got popular. But then its... do I just download this app or do I return it.
- andiareso 4y ago
  I definitely see this as the biggest downside. However, as someone who doesn't deal with these big companies to begin with, it wouldn't affect me at all if they move out. It would just fast-track me to recommending alternatives to everyone I know. I already migrated my whole family into iCloud for photos and own Nextcloud server for Google Drive alternative. It's been great. Obviously not the average user, but I could see people sticking with Apple's services over Google's. Might get a huge base of older adults off of Facebook for good if they decide to leave the App Store.
irrational 4y ago
> Developers already raise the prices for apps/subscriptions in iOS (vs, say, the web) to offset Apple's cut. I'll believe most developers offering cheaper prices on other stores when I see it. Nobody is going to lower their prices just because they have moved app stores.
rendleflag 4y ago
Do you really think developers are going to lower the price of their app people are already willing to pay for? I agree the 30% Apple tax can inflate prices, but I'm more inclined to think developers will pocket the 30% instead of reducing their apps price, especially companies selling a product (e.g. Twitter).
Terretta 4y ago
> Developers already raise the prices for apps/subscriptions in iOS (vs, say, the web) to offset Apple's cut. And do they lower it again when the 'cut' is 1/2 in year two? I haven't seen that, I've only seen devs pocket the diff.

by Me1000 4y ago

shagie 4y ago

> 2) Developers will be able to offer refunds more easily (something that continues to be ridiculously hard with the App Store). I would counter that its really easy compared to most other systems. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204084 I had an occasion where my phone was loaned to my (young at that time) nephew on a car trip and since it was my phone (and only my phone) I had rather permissive purchase checks on it. He bought a bunch of in app purchase stuff for Talking Tom (owned by a Chinese company). I filled out the form, and got a refund. I believe that it was much easier than trying to get a refund from the developer.

Me1000 4y ago
Here's an example a friend of mine ran into recently: They sold their company and shut down their service for which they charged monthly/yearly subscriptions. They had a decent relationship with Apple, so they emailed their contact and notified them that they'd like to issue refunds to all their users. Apple said that users had to do it themselves. That wouldn't be so bad, but there's (as I understand it) some restrictions on Apple offering refunds for subscriptions, for example if you're 25 days into a 30 day subscription period, Apple won't allow users to request a refund. This caused users to get angry at my friend and their company. If they had been using any other payment service other than the App Store, they could have just automatically issued refunds to all their users.
- shagie 4y ago
  The difference that we're seeing here is a "user can request a refund easily" vs "developer can refund something to a user." Apple balances on the assumption of the stability of their developers offering subscriptions and an easier experience for a user requesting a refund. The difficulty that the developer is having in this case is that Apple isn't exposing the payment information to the developer. If they can say "this user gets a refund" that is leaking some information about the users to developers. (...) Additionally, it appears that there were some new methods added to the in-app library for developers to be able to create a refund request on behalf of a user. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transaction/3803220-beginrefundrequest https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transacti... > Call this function from account settings or a help menu to enable customers to request a refund for an in-app purchase within your app. When you call this function, the system displays a refund sheet with the customer’s purchase details and list of reason codes for the customer to choose from.
  - jacobr1 4y ago
    Apple could still act as an indirect facilitator - send apple the money and they refund it on your behalf. I'm sure there are many reasons why this is complicated, but I don't see any fundamental reasons this couldn't be done if Apple want to enable it.
  - saurik 4y ago
    Sure, but that obviously isn't what people were talking about with respect to developers giving refunds. I provided that feature to developers in Cydia and gave refunds directly to users and it was still appreciated by all to have that feature. Regardless, to address your (off-topic) addition: do you actually request refunds from Apple often enough to be willing to pay 10% more for the privilege? You'd have to be asking for refunds for 1 out of every 10 products you buy for that to make sense...
bdcravens 4y ago
You're talking about 2 different things. The platform providing refunds doesn't obviate the need for the developer to have the same option.
- shagie 4y ago
  A developer can issue a refund request on behalf of a user - its just that they can't do the refund themselves because the developer doesn't hold tokens for processing the payment. Doing so gets into issues of PCI and user privacy. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transaction/3803220-beginrefundrequest https://developer.apple.com/documentation/storekit/transacti...

nerdjon 4y ago

> As a user you can choose to only use the Apple App Store if you want. Since most users will only use the official store, it seems unlikely that many mainstream apps would consider dropping it entirely. That right there is my problem with this. We can't even definitively say that it isn't possible. Doesn't Epic do it on Android? A big enough company (like Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon) could easily push their store as being the primary way to download their apps. Start out on both at first but gradually introduce incentives for the users to redownload somewhere else. Then suddenly that App Store is on their phone, other developers see the App Store being used a lot and more and more developers stop using the App Store because they can get around these protections that I get as a user. If somehow developers were still required to be on the App Store, fine. I would have no issue with it. But I just don't see developers doing it. Too many already try to employ dark patterns on there website that given a chance there is no way they won't try to do them on mobile. Many already try (like with the prompts to permit app tracking) but are limited in what they can do.

runnerup 4y ago
> A big enough company (like Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon) could easily push their store Or any shitty IoT company. When people pay $400 for an instant pot or $800 for a robot vacuum or electric scooter they’ll download any spyware app to make it run. Plenty already required sideloading apk’s on Android.
- nerdjon 4y ago
  I honestly didn't even think about that, buying some product only to find that the app for it is on another store. I mean most likely would not happen until another big enough store got popular. But then its... do I just download this app or do I return it.
andiareso 4y ago
I definitely see this as the biggest downside. However, as someone who doesn't deal with these big companies to begin with, it wouldn't affect me at all if they move out. It would just fast-track me to recommending alternatives to everyone I know. I already migrated my whole family into iCloud for photos and own Nextcloud server for Google Drive alternative. It's been great. Obviously not the average user, but I could see people sticking with Apple's services over Google's. Might get a huge base of older adults off of Facebook for good if they decide to leave the App Store.

irrational 4y ago

> Developers already raise the prices for apps/subscriptions in iOS (vs, say, the web) to offset Apple's cut. I'll believe most developers offering cheaper prices on other stores when I see it. Nobody is going to lower their prices just because they have moved app stores.

rendleflag 4y ago

Do you really think developers are going to lower the price of their app people are already willing to pay for? I agree the 30% Apple tax can inflate prices, but I'm more inclined to think developers will pocket the 30% instead of reducing their apps price, especially companies selling a product (e.g. Twitter).

Terretta 4y ago

> Developers already raise the prices for apps/subscriptions in iOS (vs, say, the web) to offset Apple's cut. And do they lower it again when the 'cut' is 1/2 in year two? I haven't seen that, I've only seen devs pocket the diff.