6 ms·

> US users whining about not being able to transfer their own currency to others without either multi-hour delays or costs Never heard that in real life, every

> US users whining about not being able to transfer their own currency to others without either multi-hour delays or costs Never heard that in real life, everyone I know just uses Venmo. I occasionally use Zelle and Apple, too, but frankly I like having the money transfer service at arm's length from my real bank. Especially when I'm transacting with a stranger.

rpep 4y ago
I really don’t think people in the US realise quite how far behind it is in banking services. In the U.K. we’ve had online banking for 20 years now, and telephone banking before that. With most banks you can send an amount up to £25k to any account in the country and the money will be there pretty much instantly. All you need is the name of the person/business and their 6-digit sort code and 8 digit account number. Since about 18 months ago, it automatically warns you if the persons name doesn’t match on the name on the account. We’ve had chip cards and PIN rather than signature in Europe since the early 2000s, and contactless cards started being launched in 2007.
- rambambram 4y ago
  Exactly! And this is only describing UK. Paying from let's say the Netherlands to Greece or Sweden or Portugal, with my regular internet banking app from my real bank, I can transfer money within one business day without additional costs.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I have no interest in giving a stranger my account number. Heck, for Zelle I'd have to give them my email address and that's already too much. Chip & pin for most people is less convenient, so you'd not find too many Americans thinking they were behind in that regard. The PIN does give some added security, which is great if you are a bank because it's easier to justify denying any fraud claims. About the only thing I might agree on that is a meaningful limit is sending money between my accounts at different institutions. Instant only if I do it at the branch, less instant if I want to make it happen through my smartphone.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > The PIN does give some added security, It prevents gas pumps from stealing credit card numbers, which up until chip and pin that was a huge problem. Same with random non bank ATMs. General advice was either go to a bank ATM or you'd get your credit card # stolen. > I have no interest in giving a stranger my account number. Heck, for Zelle I'd have to give them my email address and that's already too much. Zelle's sending limits are way too low. Can't pay rent with it, in the USA, still have to mail a check in many places to pay rent. Sure the bank automates paying mailing the check, but here is the stupid process: 1. Renter tells bank to auto mail a check to landlord 2. Landlord receives paper check, uses mobile phone app to deposit check into their account 3. Bank makes funds instantly available, then at some point someone manually reviews the images of the check to make sure it is real. 3a. If the check is too large, funds are not immediately available. Or, to put it another way, because neither of our banks don't allow online wire transfers, the easiest way for my wife and I to send each other non-trivial amounts of money is to write a physical check to each other! That is insane.
  - rpep 4y ago
    The account number/sort code combination alone is not usable by a fraudster to withdraw money in any way in the U.K., so perhaps this is where the disconnect is. You’d need to physically go to a branch and present the bank card and enter the PIN number, or present photo ID with matching details to the account. There are “direct debits” that allow companies to draw money from an account, but they can only be set up by businesses, there are special guarantees, etc. etc. that mean the bank is liable to reimburse you immediately under the “Direct Debit Guarantee” if you report a fraudulent transaction.
- kasperni 4y ago
  Honestly, outside of banking the U.K. is a 3rd world country digital service wise. A lot of countries in the EU have had digital identies for more than 15 years. The U.K hasn't even started. You want to signup for a digital service from the government, your bank, your insurance company,.. . Well you need to send in a copy of a bill and your passport. And then they will give you a separate login for every service. And it is not even like there are many services you can use. In Denmark, for example, all communication with the government has been digital for almost 10 years, unless you are exempt. In the U.K. I've experienced places where I had to send in a physical letter. So yeah, banking is fine, but that is about it. In other places they are at least 10 years behind similar countries.
  - dcminter 4y ago
    This isn't due to a lack of innovation though - it's because the UK electorate rejected a national identity register a few years back. Without a national ID system it's much harder to create corresponding e-identity tools. Edit: I'd said "explicitly rejected" but that would incorrectly imply a referendum or somesuch so I amended.
    - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
      There's nominal UK resistance to ID cards because the right-wing fascist papers say there is. I'm not convinced the population is all that bothered. Most people have some form of ID anyway. Most of Europe has ID cards and they Just Work. They even work as travel ID instead of a passport for flights between European destinations.
      - Normille 4y ago
        >There's nominal UK resistance to ID cards because the right-wing fascist papers say there is. I'm not convinced the population is all that bothered... I think you've got it the wrong way round. People who oppose a national ID card tend to be left-leaning, while those who are for it tend to be on the right. In the UK there's a very strong cultural association [countless films, TV dramas] etc. equating national ID cards with humourless totalitarian officials demanding to see 'Your papers!'. Hence the inherent distaste for the concept of having to carry something that proves who you are to any officious git in a uniform, who cares to ask for it. Of course the irony is that, outside of passports, the UK pretty much has acquired a de facto national ID card by stealth, in the form of the photocard driving licence. It's almost always the 'other' document you can use whenever reuired to prove your identity, if you don't have a passport. And the government is trying very hard to get people still holding the older [non photo] paper driving licences to 'upgrade' to a new photocard driving licence. Not only by extolling its benefits, but by threatening heavy fines for anyone whose details have changed in any way on their old paper licence and who hasn't immediately updated it.
- astrange 4y ago
  US banks have instant money transmission (with either Zelle, which is not a 3rd party service, or debit cards) and contactless cards. We don't have chip and PIN because it's dumb. It's chip and nothing, not chip and signature. There's no reason for credit card users to spend time protecting the bank's money like that - credit cards are not your money and their security is not your problem.
  - freedom2099 4y ago
    Most people in Europe don’t use credit cards but rather debit cards
    - astrange 4y ago
      US debit cards have chip and PIN in some cases like cash withdrawals. Not sure of the rules. Credit cards also have 2FA (“3D secure”) for less trustworthy online sites, mostly international.
  - wobbly_bush 4y ago
    > There's no reason for credit card users to spend time protecting the bank's money like that - credit cards are not your money and their security is not your problem (Not the person you replied to) It depends on the regulations. I don't think all countries have the same liability/protection laws regarding credit cards as the US.
  - avianlyric 4y ago
    > There's no reason for credit card users to spend time protecting the bank's money like that - credit cards are not your money and their security is not your problem. Who do you think ends up picking up the bill for all the money the banks lose due to sloppy security? I can guarantee that no bank CEO was ever forced to buy a smaller yacht because they lost too much money to fraud. All of those costs get passed onto consumers in the form of crazy high transaction fees, up to 10x higher than the EU, and an insane list of bank fees for so much as sneezing wrong in a bank branch. You might personally no care about protecting the banks money, but neither are they, because they’ll just find a creative way to collect new fees to cover the cost. Not a cent will come out of their profit margin.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
It's a crutch around your ancient banking systems. My country never had cobol on mainframes, so bank infra isn't build around daily batches. Also healthcare and insurance aren't total shit, just a normal level of shit.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Yes, we pay doctors too much in the US. And we spend an irrational amount of money on drug research chasing that long tail. The actual care is great.
  - chownie 4y ago
    Is doctor pay much higher in the US than the EU? I had always assumed that healthcare had crazy high costs in the US because they have a middleman who is motivated to refuse payment as much as possible (insurance companies) so healthcare providers have to inflate costs to try and stay even.
    - idontpost 4y ago
    - martinald 4y ago
      Average doctor salary is $300k in the US. Top doctors can make over a million/yr. This is at least 3x what most doctors can expect in western europe.
      - freedom2099 4y ago
        Yes… but doctors in Europe don’t have to pay for expensive health insurances XD
        sofixa 4y ago
        And don't start with half a million or whatever 6 figure sum student loan debts to reimburse.
shapefrog 4y ago
Venmo has been independently valued at $38 billion in 2020. The venmo "innovation" does something every retail bank in the UK has done for over a decade.
- fomine3 4y ago
  It look like Dropbox-curlftpfs comparison. I've never used both but user experience would be different. I imagine that most traditional bank apps are crappy.
  - dzonga 4y ago
    completely different experience. in the uk - bank transfers are instant. at most will take 2 hours, if there's major technical issues with your bank. there's no asking if someone has paypal etc, give account number, sort code and done. money is there in less than 5 sec's in someone's account. if the US had comparable system to the Uk - CashApp, PayPal, venmo, plaid etc wouldn't exist
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    I doubt you would notice much difference in user experience from a 2012 UK banking app vs venmo / cashapp / paypal. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/feb/16/barclays-pingit-money-sending-smartphone https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/feb/16/barclays-pingi... (note the person in the article is holding the iphone 4 in a steve jobs approved manner)
- vjk800 4y ago
  I can't understand how the banks in the US are so crappy. Here in Finland we've had instantaneous and free bank transfers for like 20-30 years. I used to wonder why the hell is Paypal so big, but then I learned that it's mainly because it provides functions that all the normal banks here provide, but none in the US do. The same goes for most of the fintech. There is much less market for these companies because the major banks are already doing what they are offering in some form.

rpep 4y ago

I really don’t think people in the US realise quite how far behind it is in banking services. In the U.K. we’ve had online banking for 20 years now, and telephone banking before that. With most banks you can send an amount up to £25k to any account in the country and the money will be there pretty much instantly. All you need is the name of the person/business and their 6-digit sort code and 8 digit account number. Since about 18 months ago, it automatically warns you if the persons name doesn’t match on the name on the account. We’ve had chip cards and PIN rather than signature in Europe since the early 2000s, and contactless cards started being launched in 2007.

rambambram 4y ago
Exactly! And this is only describing UK. Paying from let's say the Netherlands to Greece or Sweden or Portugal, with my regular internet banking app from my real bank, I can transfer money within one business day without additional costs.
rootusrootus 4y ago
I have no interest in giving a stranger my account number. Heck, for Zelle I'd have to give them my email address and that's already too much. Chip & pin for most people is less convenient, so you'd not find too many Americans thinking they were behind in that regard. The PIN does give some added security, which is great if you are a bank because it's easier to justify denying any fraud claims. About the only thing I might agree on that is a meaningful limit is sending money between my accounts at different institutions. Instant only if I do it at the branch, less instant if I want to make it happen through my smartphone.
- com2kid 4y ago
  > The PIN does give some added security, It prevents gas pumps from stealing credit card numbers, which up until chip and pin that was a huge problem. Same with random non bank ATMs. General advice was either go to a bank ATM or you'd get your credit card # stolen. > I have no interest in giving a stranger my account number. Heck, for Zelle I'd have to give them my email address and that's already too much. Zelle's sending limits are way too low. Can't pay rent with it, in the USA, still have to mail a check in many places to pay rent. Sure the bank automates paying mailing the check, but here is the stupid process: 1. Renter tells bank to auto mail a check to landlord 2. Landlord receives paper check, uses mobile phone app to deposit check into their account 3. Bank makes funds instantly available, then at some point someone manually reviews the images of the check to make sure it is real. 3a. If the check is too large, funds are not immediately available. Or, to put it another way, because neither of our banks don't allow online wire transfers, the easiest way for my wife and I to send each other non-trivial amounts of money is to write a physical check to each other! That is insane.
- rpep 4y ago
  The account number/sort code combination alone is not usable by a fraudster to withdraw money in any way in the U.K., so perhaps this is where the disconnect is. You’d need to physically go to a branch and present the bank card and enter the PIN number, or present photo ID with matching details to the account. There are “direct debits” that allow companies to draw money from an account, but they can only be set up by businesses, there are special guarantees, etc. etc. that mean the bank is liable to reimburse you immediately under the “Direct Debit Guarantee” if you report a fraudulent transaction.
kasperni 4y ago
Honestly, outside of banking the U.K. is a 3rd world country digital service wise. A lot of countries in the EU have had digital identies for more than 15 years. The U.K hasn't even started. You want to signup for a digital service from the government, your bank, your insurance company,.. . Well you need to send in a copy of a bill and your passport. And then they will give you a separate login for every service. And it is not even like there are many services you can use. In Denmark, for example, all communication with the government has been digital for almost 10 years, unless you are exempt. In the U.K. I've experienced places where I had to send in a physical letter. So yeah, banking is fine, but that is about it. In other places they are at least 10 years behind similar countries.
- dcminter 4y ago
  This isn't due to a lack of innovation though - it's because the UK electorate rejected a national identity register a few years back. Without a national ID system it's much harder to create corresponding e-identity tools. Edit: I'd said "explicitly rejected" but that would incorrectly imply a referendum or somesuch so I amended.
  - TheOtherHobbes 4y ago
    There's nominal UK resistance to ID cards because the right-wing fascist papers say there is. I'm not convinced the population is all that bothered. Most people have some form of ID anyway. Most of Europe has ID cards and they Just Work. They even work as travel ID instead of a passport for flights between European destinations.
    - Normille 4y ago
      >There's nominal UK resistance to ID cards because the right-wing fascist papers say there is. I'm not convinced the population is all that bothered... I think you've got it the wrong way round. People who oppose a national ID card tend to be left-leaning, while those who are for it tend to be on the right. In the UK there's a very strong cultural association [countless films, TV dramas] etc. equating national ID cards with humourless totalitarian officials demanding to see 'Your papers!'. Hence the inherent distaste for the concept of having to carry something that proves who you are to any officious git in a uniform, who cares to ask for it. Of course the irony is that, outside of passports, the UK pretty much has acquired a de facto national ID card by stealth, in the form of the photocard driving licence. It's almost always the 'other' document you can use whenever reuired to prove your identity, if you don't have a passport. And the government is trying very hard to get people still holding the older [non photo] paper driving licences to 'upgrade' to a new photocard driving licence. Not only by extolling its benefits, but by threatening heavy fines for anyone whose details have changed in any way on their old paper licence and who hasn't immediately updated it.
astrange 4y ago
US banks have instant money transmission (with either Zelle, which is not a 3rd party service, or debit cards) and contactless cards. We don't have chip and PIN because it's dumb. It's chip and nothing, not chip and signature. There's no reason for credit card users to spend time protecting the bank's money like that - credit cards are not your money and their security is not your problem.
- freedom2099 4y ago
  Most people in Europe don’t use credit cards but rather debit cards
  - astrange 4y ago
    US debit cards have chip and PIN in some cases like cash withdrawals. Not sure of the rules. Credit cards also have 2FA (“3D secure”) for less trustworthy online sites, mostly international.
- wobbly_bush 4y ago
  > There's no reason for credit card users to spend time protecting the bank's money like that - credit cards are not your money and their security is not your problem (Not the person you replied to) It depends on the regulations. I don't think all countries have the same liability/protection laws regarding credit cards as the US.
- avianlyric 4y ago
  > There's no reason for credit card users to spend time protecting the bank's money like that - credit cards are not your money and their security is not your problem. Who do you think ends up picking up the bill for all the money the banks lose due to sloppy security? I can guarantee that no bank CEO was ever forced to buy a smaller yacht because they lost too much money to fraud. All of those costs get passed onto consumers in the form of crazy high transaction fees, up to 10x higher than the EU, and an insane list of bank fees for so much as sneezing wrong in a bank branch. You might personally no care about protecting the banks money, but neither are they, because they’ll just find a creative way to collect new fees to cover the cost. Not a cent will come out of their profit margin.

KptMarchewa 4y ago

It's a crutch around your ancient banking systems. My country never had cobol on mainframes, so bank infra isn't build around daily batches. Also healthcare and insurance aren't total shit, just a normal level of shit.

rootusrootus 4y ago
Yes, we pay doctors too much in the US. And we spend an irrational amount of money on drug research chasing that long tail. The actual care is great.
- chownie 4y ago
  Is doctor pay much higher in the US than the EU? I had always assumed that healthcare had crazy high costs in the US because they have a middleman who is motivated to refuse payment as much as possible (insurance companies) so healthcare providers have to inflate costs to try and stay even.
  - idontpost 4y ago
  - martinald 4y ago
    Average doctor salary is $300k in the US. Top doctors can make over a million/yr. This is at least 3x what most doctors can expect in western europe.
    - freedom2099 4y ago
      Yes… but doctors in Europe don’t have to pay for expensive health insurances XD
      - sofixa 4y ago
        And don't start with half a million or whatever 6 figure sum student loan debts to reimburse.

shapefrog 4y ago

Venmo has been independently valued at $38 billion in 2020. The venmo "innovation" does something every retail bank in the UK has done for over a decade.

fomine3 4y ago
It look like Dropbox-curlftpfs comparison. I've never used both but user experience would be different. I imagine that most traditional bank apps are crappy.
- dzonga 4y ago
  completely different experience. in the uk - bank transfers are instant. at most will take 2 hours, if there's major technical issues with your bank. there's no asking if someone has paypal etc, give account number, sort code and done. money is there in less than 5 sec's in someone's account. if the US had comparable system to the Uk - CashApp, PayPal, venmo, plaid etc wouldn't exist
- shapefrog 4y ago
  I doubt you would notice much difference in user experience from a 2012 UK banking app vs venmo / cashapp / paypal. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/feb/16/barclays-pingit-money-sending-smartphone https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/feb/16/barclays-pingi... (note the person in the article is holding the iphone 4 in a steve jobs approved manner)
vjk800 4y ago
I can't understand how the banks in the US are so crappy. Here in Finland we've had instantaneous and free bank transfers for like 20-30 years. I used to wonder why the hell is Paypal so big, but then I learned that it's mainly because it provides functions that all the normal banks here provide, but none in the US do. The same goes for most of the fintech. There is much less market for these companies because the major banks are already doing what they are offering in some form.