4 ms·

Are You Stuck in a Girls' Club?

71 points by dwynings 15y ago

dmor 15y ago
Asking for what you need, being prepared to describe who you need to be introduced to in order to move your business forward, and honoring introductions from others are best practices for business networking whether male or female. If you are getting introduced to a lot of women, it might be because you are sending the message to the world that furthering women in business is your #1 priority -- and people are eager to help others achieve their goals. As Warren Buffet says, "you attract what you are".
- jvm 15y ago
  I agree, but I think it's important to recognize that one of the disadvantages women have in business that they probably give off the impression "that furthering women in business is your #1 priority" simply by being women, and so, unlike men, they have to work to actively combat that presupposition.
  - ahoyhere 15y ago
    jvm, I think a big reason this happens to women is because they make their femaleness a thing: they talk about it, write about it, etc. They may not INTEND to sound as if "furthering women is job #1" -- but they give out a message that it's important to them, perhaps inadvertently. This won't-intro-me-to-men thing has never happened to me. However, I don't make a big deal out of the fact that I'm a woman. I also don't tend to do things like go to "girl geek dinners" or whatever, because I find them sexist & obnoxious. What does happen to me is that women "in technology" will presume that I am interested in them, agree with them, support their agenda, value the things they value, etc., simply because I have breasts and a vagina. Which irritates the daylights out of me. (Their presumption, that is, not my equipment.) The OP author makes a great point -- try to meet the people who are the best people for you to meet, regardless of in-born traits. I definitely agree with it. I simply also believe women have more of a hand in causing these situations for themselves than they want to admit.
johnohara 15y ago
"That which you seek is seeking you." - Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi, "Rumi" (30 September 1207 - 17 December 1273)
- anamax 15y ago
  I didn't know that cheeseburgers could "seek".
Aaronontheweb 15y ago
As it is with most things in life - you will not be given that for which you do not ask. There's a bit of subtle social normed behavior described by the author in her anecdote about the male VC introducing two female CEOs to each other - I'd probably do the same thing in the VC's position (offer an unsolicited introduction to another female CEO) because I don't know what is most comfortable for the female introducee due to how relatively rare they are. However, if I'm given a specific ask for introduction in the form of "someone who can help me [accomplish business goal X]" then that tears down some doors for me when it comes to putting my political capital to work. In a way, what the author describes is a kind of Abeliene Paradox (inability to manage agreement)... If the male party assumes that the female party wants introductions to other females and the female party doesn't specify otherwise, then that's what's going to happen. Great read!
- jvm 15y ago
  > As it is with most things in life - you will not be given that for which you do not ask. I agree with everything in your comment, but I would have emphasized that unlike women, men do not need to ask to be introduced to men, which is a major material advantage that men have in business over women. I do think it is awkward to have to ask for something like that. In any case, it's great to get the word out there that this is something that women have to compensate for, both so men are aware of it and as a tip to women on how to get those male connections.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
masmullin 15y ago
Why is every gender centric post here on HN about "making connections" and "growing your network" ? You want to advance; focus on adding value to the company and do a good fucking job!
- lsc 15y ago
  >Why is every gender centric post here on HN about "making connections" and "growing your network" ? Because that is how you advance beyond "good Engineer" - which really only brings you up to upper middle-class levels of wealth. If you want to go further? connections are pretty important. >You want to advance; focus on adding value to the company and do a good fucking job! Yeah. This can earn you a very comfortable salary, and if you live frugally and invest well, maybe a retirement in your 50s. I mean, not a bad life; but if you want to go further? connections are pretty key.
- rayiner 15y ago
  You have to do good work, yes, but that's not sufficient in most places to advance to the top. To maximize individual success, you have to lobby for important work, then do a good job at it, then lobby for more important work. By making connections and growing your network, you can: 1) find that more important work to be able to demonstrate your talents; 2) add value to the company in ways you couldn't by simply doing a little bit of a better job on the work you're given.
- nn2 15y ago
  Those who can do. Those who don't connect.
  - skore 15y ago
    Your comment severely lacks exactly two commas.

71 points by dwynings 15y ago

dmor 15y ago

Asking for what you need, being prepared to describe who you need to be introduced to in order to move your business forward, and honoring introductions from others are best practices for business networking whether male or female. If you are getting introduced to a lot of women, it might be because you are sending the message to the world that furthering women in business is your #1 priority -- and people are eager to help others achieve their goals. As Warren Buffet says, "you attract what you are".

jvm 15y ago
I agree, but I think it's important to recognize that one of the disadvantages women have in business that they probably give off the impression "that furthering women in business is your #1 priority" simply by being women, and so, unlike men, they have to work to actively combat that presupposition.
- ahoyhere 15y ago
  jvm, I think a big reason this happens to women is because they make their femaleness a thing: they talk about it, write about it, etc. They may not INTEND to sound as if "furthering women is job #1" -- but they give out a message that it's important to them, perhaps inadvertently. This won't-intro-me-to-men thing has never happened to me. However, I don't make a big deal out of the fact that I'm a woman. I also don't tend to do things like go to "girl geek dinners" or whatever, because I find them sexist & obnoxious. What does happen to me is that women "in technology" will presume that I am interested in them, agree with them, support their agenda, value the things they value, etc., simply because I have breasts and a vagina. Which irritates the daylights out of me. (Their presumption, that is, not my equipment.) The OP author makes a great point -- try to meet the people who are the best people for you to meet, regardless of in-born traits. I definitely agree with it. I simply also believe women have more of a hand in causing these situations for themselves than they want to admit.

johnohara 15y ago

"That which you seek is seeking you." - Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi, "Rumi" (30 September 1207 - 17 December 1273)

anamax 15y ago
I didn't know that cheeseburgers could "seek".

Aaronontheweb 15y ago

As it is with most things in life - you will not be given that for which you do not ask. There's a bit of subtle social normed behavior described by the author in her anecdote about the male VC introducing two female CEOs to each other - I'd probably do the same thing in the VC's position (offer an unsolicited introduction to another female CEO) because I don't know what is most comfortable for the female introducee due to how relatively rare they are. However, if I'm given a specific ask for introduction in the form of "someone who can help me [accomplish business goal X]" then that tears down some doors for me when it comes to putting my political capital to work. In a way, what the author describes is a kind of Abeliene Paradox (inability to manage agreement)... If the male party assumes that the female party wants introductions to other females and the female party doesn't specify otherwise, then that's what's going to happen. Great read!

jvm 15y ago
> As it is with most things in life - you will not be given that for which you do not ask. I agree with everything in your comment, but I would have emphasized that unlike women, men do not need to ask to be introduced to men, which is a major material advantage that men have in business over women. I do think it is awkward to have to ask for something like that. In any case, it's great to get the word out there that this is something that women have to compensate for, both so men are aware of it and as a tip to women on how to get those male connections.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

masmullin 15y ago

Why is every gender centric post here on HN about "making connections" and "growing your network" ? You want to advance; focus on adding value to the company and do a good fucking job!

lsc 15y ago
>Why is every gender centric post here on HN about "making connections" and "growing your network" ? Because that is how you advance beyond "good Engineer" - which really only brings you up to upper middle-class levels of wealth. If you want to go further? connections are pretty important. >You want to advance; focus on adding value to the company and do a good fucking job! Yeah. This can earn you a very comfortable salary, and if you live frugally and invest well, maybe a retirement in your 50s. I mean, not a bad life; but if you want to go further? connections are pretty key.
rayiner 15y ago
You have to do good work, yes, but that's not sufficient in most places to advance to the top. To maximize individual success, you have to lobby for important work, then do a good job at it, then lobby for more important work. By making connections and growing your network, you can: 1) find that more important work to be able to demonstrate your talents; 2) add value to the company in ways you couldn't by simply doing a little bit of a better job on the work you're given.
nn2 15y ago
Those who can do. Those who don't connect.
- skore 15y ago
  Your comment severely lacks exactly two commas.