4 ms·

Ask HN: Legal protect on a game reverse engineering project

8 points by luckbunny 4y ago

Hello. I want to build an open-source emulator for the server for an online game. I know that there are a lot of them, but I would like to avoid having legal issues on it (such as a DMCA takedown). For example, roBrowser was running for many years, and its GitHub repository received a DMCA takedown. Despite it recovered later, it's annonying. Does someone can recommened legal actions (or lawyers) to help me to avoid any kind of issues on this project?

regularjack 4y ago
My suggestion would be to build it first, and worry about legal issues when/if they actually happen. Maybe you'll build it and it will attract no attention. Or you'll get bored with the project and drop it. Or a myriad of other reasons that will result in the project not seeing adoption. Legal issues likely will only happen if the project sees adoption. I would focus my energy on making it being adopted first, instead of fixing legal issues that might never materialize.
- pzduniak 4y ago
  I agree with this, with some caveats. If the publisher deems you to be a threat, they will harass you with fraudlent DMCAs regardless of their validity. Hell, they might even send you C&D letters and threaten legal action, even if you keep DRM checks intact (see the alterIWNet/FiveM sagas). It looks like the recent multiplayer mods seem to be run by "anonymous" devs - perhaps consider doing that if you think there's a chance of them firing back at you.
simne 4y ago
You don't really need lawyers, because they will not protect You in this case. Things are really pretty simple - just exists things which are copyrighted and prohibited to reverse, and which are not. If You will NOT include in rep prohibited things, You are safe without any lawyer. But if You include, You are unsafe, with ANY lawyer. Ask questions, I'll try answer.
- luckbunny 4y ago
  Hey, thanks for the help. Another question is how much the EULA can be used for legal actions. The game I want to work on explicitly says that it's forbidden to do reverse engineering and change the client. I was reading more about that, and some lawyers say that a EULA violation can fire a sue - maybe because of the CFAA. I don't live in EUA, and neither the game's company is American, so perhaps the cases can be different in European Union?
  - simne 4y ago
    > it's forbidden to do reverse engineering and change the client First, to play these games (I mean ALL things, touching commercial software development), You must learn, reverse engineering (RE), or hacking, is very special case of laws. It is like strange matter, or dark matter, nobody seen it, but from some measurements considered, it might exist. Same is for RE - to sue somebody for it, one MUST provide good enough proof, that this subject really made him LARGE ENOUGH losses, and it is really done by RE. In real life, this is not always easy to proof losses, it is very subjective thing, so it is even possible, in some WESTERN countries, judges will accept proof, in others will not. Not exactly for RE or hacking, in most countries exists official formulation - smthing like "worthless sue", may be right word, "negligible", meaning, losses so tiny, it is not worth to proceed and usually judges automatically closing such cases. Also, in adequate countries, exists exceptions even for publications of Nazy symbols (usually prohibited) - "for scientific purposes", so if You fit, You could proceed without fear. So You read it wrong. This EULA is for 90% of users, not against hackers (it just will not work against hackers, because, what I said before), and it only mean, if You violate it, for company just will not be possible, to implement their promises which they claimed. For about enforcement, they could forever ban You from use their services (because of fear, that Your work will affect their services for other persons), and also they could do same thing with Your relatives and other connected persons. BTW, unfortunately for You, or fortunate (it depends), losses for 3rd parties and even abstract European values, are important for EU and Western judges, so You should be careful, as (depend on case), judge could decide, You doing contra European values, (in this case they will prohibit Your work), or You doing Pro European values, (in this case they will decide, You could proceed).
simne 4y ago
Exists exclusion, when You could benefit using aggressive legal policy. If You are really big corporation, You could surround niche of game with Your own copyrighted content and patents, like CPU vendors, each have hundreds of patents. In this case, owner of game, will risk to begin great legal war if he tries to sue You. But this is race of arms, very like Cold war. To be safe, Your investments should be big enough, to compete with what have owner of game. For example, to compete with Microsoft, You should spend hundreds of millions for copyrighted content and patents, but if Your competitor smaller, may be enough few tens of patents.

8 points by luckbunny 4y ago

regularjack 4y ago

My suggestion would be to build it first, and worry about legal issues when/if they actually happen. Maybe you'll build it and it will attract no attention. Or you'll get bored with the project and drop it. Or a myriad of other reasons that will result in the project not seeing adoption. Legal issues likely will only happen if the project sees adoption. I would focus my energy on making it being adopted first, instead of fixing legal issues that might never materialize.

pzduniak 4y ago
I agree with this, with some caveats. If the publisher deems you to be a threat, they will harass you with fraudlent DMCAs regardless of their validity. Hell, they might even send you C&D letters and threaten legal action, even if you keep DRM checks intact (see the alterIWNet/FiveM sagas). It looks like the recent multiplayer mods seem to be run by "anonymous" devs - perhaps consider doing that if you think there's a chance of them firing back at you.

simne 4y ago

You don't really need lawyers, because they will not protect You in this case. Things are really pretty simple - just exists things which are copyrighted and prohibited to reverse, and which are not. If You will NOT include in rep prohibited things, You are safe without any lawyer. But if You include, You are unsafe, with ANY lawyer. Ask questions, I'll try answer.

luckbunny 4y ago
Hey, thanks for the help. Another question is how much the EULA can be used for legal actions. The game I want to work on explicitly says that it's forbidden to do reverse engineering and change the client. I was reading more about that, and some lawyers say that a EULA violation can fire a sue - maybe because of the CFAA. I don't live in EUA, and neither the game's company is American, so perhaps the cases can be different in European Union?
- simne 4y ago
  > it's forbidden to do reverse engineering and change the client First, to play these games (I mean ALL things, touching commercial software development), You must learn, reverse engineering (RE), or hacking, is very special case of laws. It is like strange matter, or dark matter, nobody seen it, but from some measurements considered, it might exist. Same is for RE - to sue somebody for it, one MUST provide good enough proof, that this subject really made him LARGE ENOUGH losses, and it is really done by RE. In real life, this is not always easy to proof losses, it is very subjective thing, so it is even possible, in some WESTERN countries, judges will accept proof, in others will not. Not exactly for RE or hacking, in most countries exists official formulation - smthing like "worthless sue", may be right word, "negligible", meaning, losses so tiny, it is not worth to proceed and usually judges automatically closing such cases. Also, in adequate countries, exists exceptions even for publications of Nazy symbols (usually prohibited) - "for scientific purposes", so if You fit, You could proceed without fear. So You read it wrong. This EULA is for 90% of users, not against hackers (it just will not work against hackers, because, what I said before), and it only mean, if You violate it, for company just will not be possible, to implement their promises which they claimed. For about enforcement, they could forever ban You from use their services (because of fear, that Your work will affect their services for other persons), and also they could do same thing with Your relatives and other connected persons. BTW, unfortunately for You, or fortunate (it depends), losses for 3rd parties and even abstract European values, are important for EU and Western judges, so You should be careful, as (depend on case), judge could decide, You doing contra European values, (in this case they will prohibit Your work), or You doing Pro European values, (in this case they will decide, You could proceed).

simne 4y ago

Exists exclusion, when You could benefit using aggressive legal policy. If You are really big corporation, You could surround niche of game with Your own copyrighted content and patents, like CPU vendors, each have hundreds of patents. In this case, owner of game, will risk to begin great legal war if he tries to sue You. But this is race of arms, very like Cold war. To be safe, Your investments should be big enough, to compete with what have owner of game. For example, to compete with Microsoft, You should spend hundreds of millions for copyrighted content and patents, but if Your competitor smaller, may be enough few tens of patents.