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In-group out-group dynamics have been common throughout human history. It's a default. What's supposed to happen is that adults should correct such behavior, pa

In-group out-group dynamics have been common throughout human history. It's a default. What's supposed to happen is that adults should correct such behavior, parents, teachers, and other responsible adults. That they don't is the reason for the prevalence of the behavior in American public schools. That the faculty are often restricted from doing so due to ideological, legal, and political reasons is another reason for the proliferation.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
> What's supposed to happen is that adults should correct such behavior, parents, teachers, and other responsible adults. Not only would I be deathly afraid of being the one doing the bullying, but also if I saw some bullying happening from others... knowing what we know with school shootings... why wouldn't peers stop at nothing to squash bullying ASAP?
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  Children usually don't think of consequences. It's why they're bad at decision making and need an education. It's why we don't let them vote (or don't seriously talk about it). Middle-schoolers and high-schoolers are still children. They're just less bad at decision making than, say, 5-year-olds. But their brains still don't work like someone over the age of 25.
  - pannSun 4y ago
    > It's why we don't let them vote (or don't seriously talk about it). How I wish that were true: Dems in several states push measures to lower voting age to 16 - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dems-several-states-push-measures-lower-voting-age-16 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dems-several-states-push-me... Majority of House Democrats vote in favor of lowering voting age to 16 - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-democrats-hr-1-lower-voting-age-16 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-democrats-hr-1-lower-... Lest anyone think this is limited to the Democrats or the US, there has been serious talk of similar changes in other countries as well, though I cannot find a source at the moment. Then there is this gem of a justification: Lowering the voting age to 16 in the US could increase the voting rate for the entire country, improving our democracy in the process. - https://nypost.com/2019/03/02/this-is-why-16-year-olds-should-be-able-to-vote/ https://nypost.com/2019/03/02/this-is-why-16-year-olds-shoul... As if the quantity of votes were the sole measure of the health of a democracy, and not how informed and mature they are. How many of us think a person makes better decisions at 16, vs. at 18 or 21? Yes there is a tradeoff between the average maturity of voters, and people having a say in how they are governed. But to think that tradeoff is optimal at 16, when even 18 is low..
    - kelseyfrog 4y ago
      I'm curious why you trailed off at the end. You seem to be hinting that there is a balance between decision making ability and voter turnout, and that younger voters have worse decision making abilities, but then stop short of saying how they ought to be balanced or where the optimal balance is. There's a lot of interesting directions to take this. How do you get out of the trap of thinking that people who vote in their self-interest or disagree with you are incapable of making good voting decisions? Or, even whether you frame voting as a privilege or a right? Teens who have jobs, pay income tax, teens who buy things pay sales tax, and yet aren't represented seems like a contradiction in our foundational principles. It fundamentally strikes at the question, "How are rights formed?" If the answer starts and ends with, "asking the people nicely," then we have some history to revisit.
      - pannSun 4y ago
        > You seem to be hinting that [..] younger voters have worse decision making abilities I'm not hinting at it - I'm saying so outright. Have your decision-making abilities not progressed since you were 16? > How do you get out of the trap of thinking that people who vote in their self-interest or disagree with you are incapable of making good voting decisions? The majority of people above the age of 21 will vote in ways I disagree with, so I don't see how it is relevant to raising or lowering the voting age. > Teens who have jobs, pay income tax, teens who buy things pay sales tax So because a kid can get a part-time job at 13, that should be the new voting age? Unless you put the voting age at 0, for some part of our lives, we all must live in a society whose laws we can't vote on. After that it's no longer a philosophical question of where rights come from, but a pragmatic balancing act between representation and an informed voting body.
        kelseyfrog 4y ago
        Honestly, I made pretty good decisions at 16. I have few regrets from that time period other than perhaps some social faux pas, but no, nothing that would have impacted my voting decisions. I'm curious what life experiences you have had in the intervening years that have impacted your ability to make voting decisions. That probably says more about you than it does about other people.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

> What's supposed to happen is that adults should correct such behavior, parents, teachers, and other responsible adults. Not only would I be deathly afraid of being the one doing the bullying, but also if I saw some bullying happening from others... knowing what we know with school shootings... why wouldn't peers stop at nothing to squash bullying ASAP?

slowmovintarget 4y ago
Children usually don't think of consequences. It's why they're bad at decision making and need an education. It's why we don't let them vote (or don't seriously talk about it). Middle-schoolers and high-schoolers are still children. They're just less bad at decision making than, say, 5-year-olds. But their brains still don't work like someone over the age of 25.
- pannSun 4y ago
  > It's why we don't let them vote (or don't seriously talk about it). How I wish that were true: Dems in several states push measures to lower voting age to 16 - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dems-several-states-push-measures-lower-voting-age-16 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dems-several-states-push-me... Majority of House Democrats vote in favor of lowering voting age to 16 - https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-democrats-hr-1-lower-voting-age-16 https://www.foxnews.com/politics/house-democrats-hr-1-lower-... Lest anyone think this is limited to the Democrats or the US, there has been serious talk of similar changes in other countries as well, though I cannot find a source at the moment. Then there is this gem of a justification: Lowering the voting age to 16 in the US could increase the voting rate for the entire country, improving our democracy in the process. - https://nypost.com/2019/03/02/this-is-why-16-year-olds-should-be-able-to-vote/ https://nypost.com/2019/03/02/this-is-why-16-year-olds-shoul... As if the quantity of votes were the sole measure of the health of a democracy, and not how informed and mature they are. How many of us think a person makes better decisions at 16, vs. at 18 or 21? Yes there is a tradeoff between the average maturity of voters, and people having a say in how they are governed. But to think that tradeoff is optimal at 16, when even 18 is low..
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    I'm curious why you trailed off at the end. You seem to be hinting that there is a balance between decision making ability and voter turnout, and that younger voters have worse decision making abilities, but then stop short of saying how they ought to be balanced or where the optimal balance is. There's a lot of interesting directions to take this. How do you get out of the trap of thinking that people who vote in their self-interest or disagree with you are incapable of making good voting decisions? Or, even whether you frame voting as a privilege or a right? Teens who have jobs, pay income tax, teens who buy things pay sales tax, and yet aren't represented seems like a contradiction in our foundational principles. It fundamentally strikes at the question, "How are rights formed?" If the answer starts and ends with, "asking the people nicely," then we have some history to revisit.
    - pannSun 4y ago
      > You seem to be hinting that [..] younger voters have worse decision making abilities I'm not hinting at it - I'm saying so outright. Have your decision-making abilities not progressed since you were 16? > How do you get out of the trap of thinking that people who vote in their self-interest or disagree with you are incapable of making good voting decisions? The majority of people above the age of 21 will vote in ways I disagree with, so I don't see how it is relevant to raising or lowering the voting age. > Teens who have jobs, pay income tax, teens who buy things pay sales tax So because a kid can get a part-time job at 13, that should be the new voting age? Unless you put the voting age at 0, for some part of our lives, we all must live in a society whose laws we can't vote on. After that it's no longer a philosophical question of where rights come from, but a pragmatic balancing act between representation and an informed voting body.
      - kelseyfrog 4y ago
        Honestly, I made pretty good decisions at 16. I have few regrets from that time period other than perhaps some social faux pas, but no, nothing that would have impacted my voting decisions. I'm curious what life experiences you have had in the intervening years that have impacted your ability to make voting decisions. That probably says more about you than it does about other people.