5 ms·

I found an example on today's front page (Rutter): https://jobs.ashbyhq.com/rutter/7b222f5f-cd46-4592-9cf8-6cd1f5e09931 https://jobs.ashbyhq.com/rutter/7b222f5f

I found an example on today's front page (Rutter): https://jobs.ashbyhq.com/rutter/7b222f5f-cd46-4592-9cf8-6cd1f5e09931 https://jobs.ashbyhq.com/rutter/7b222f5f-cd46-4592-9cf8-6cd1... No salary range posted, job is in NYC.

cyrieu 4y ago
Hey sorry about that this is our job posting - we duplicated a another one and missed adding that information, thanks for catching that! We added in the salary range. Feel free to email us if you have any other questions!
- josefresco 4y ago
  Didn't mean to call you out specifically, just wanted to see if OP was correct. Thanks for being so responsive, it's a good sign for applicants!
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  Why not add it by default?
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    > Why not add it by default? IIUC, it's generally held that in a price negotiation, the first party that posts a number is at a disadvantage. Starting salary is one kind of price negotiation. So I can understand why employers would be reluctant to do that.
    - shanebellone 4y ago
      This is probably true but also bad practice imo. It instantly signals that employers value leverage rather than employees.
    - bilsbie 4y ago
      Wouldn’t the concept of anchoring say the opposite though? I’ve always wondered that. My guess is if you say too high of a number they don’t take you seriously so anchoring can’t work?
    - bluedevil2k 4y ago
      Yeah, this isn’t correct. All things being equal, the first to post a number is at a big advantage. As another commenter pointed out, this is called anchoring. Think about a house being sold in a normal market, the price is always well above its market value to anchor the numbers high. The reason companies don’t want to post a salary number is all things aren’t equal: they have far more information on pay than you do. Vastly more. So they have the luxury of letting your uninformed ask be the anchor point cause they know it’ll probably be low. Plus, if someone asks too high, they can ignore it and move on. They (often but not always) have the luxury of choosing the lowest asks to move forward with.
      - noir_lord 4y ago
        Also they might be underpaying their current staff.
        roflyear 4y ago
        This is the truth of it. They have devs who are making $130k who have worked there for 4 years and they don't want to give them a raise to $200k.
        Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
        I know a guy that works at a very well-known tech company and has been a software engineer for over 15 years for them and is only being paid $120K. He says "They treat me well", and I'm like, no they fucking don't. They don't value your work anywhere close to what it should be. I told him that he could easily triple his TC by going almost literally anywhere else. I used to work for said company. I left because the salary was way below market and literally doubled my salary from $100K to $200K at my new digs. I made it no secret to my old manager that money was the #1 reason why I was leaving (#2 being that the team I was working on was basically falling apart due to internal politics), and he acknowledged that salaries are significantly below market and that HR is promising updates to salary bands to bring them up to market within the next couple months. Spoiler alert: It's been 1 1/2 years since I left, and the couple people I talk to from there say nothing has changed.
  - TreeRingCounter 4y ago
  - throwaway98797 4y ago
    posting a number can help confident people but hurts others example, developer makes 100k, has imposter syndrome, sees a great job that has an internal range of 150k-200k. if the dev knew the range they’d think no way they would qualify for THAT much money. the company would happily pay at bottom range for them, but instead they don’t even see the developer. ranges select for confident people.
    - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
      I'm sorry but... what kind of victim blaming nonsense is this? Seeing a salary range intimidates people?! That's 100% worth the cost, friend. Knowing what you're applying for/to is absolutely critical information, and having it before applying is a substantial amount of leverage in any negotiation. That's like saying people shouldn't post where a job is because some people might not live there, or not to post C++ jobs because not everyone knows C++...
      - throwaway98797 4y ago
        i’ve had nearly 10+ jobs and i never knew the range also on higher levels comp comes from equity base pay of $100k is immaterial if RSU/equity is $500k i do believe it hurts the people in weaker positions vs helping cause high comp individuals know how to play the game anyways
        SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        There's just so much here in your small comment (you've burned through "nearly 10+ jobs" and you're giving advice to people?!) I can't really address this but to say you're completely wrong that it hurts people to know what they'd get paid for a job, and I think that's pretty obviously the case, as do most folks, including the good people of New York who passed a law requiring it.
        badpun 4y ago
        If you care about people in weaker positions so much, perhaps develop a web plugin for them which will hide the compensation amount on the job pages?
- awb 4y ago
  Well done for acknowledging it and correcting it so quickly. Mistakes happen, especially at startups.
- codegeek 4y ago
  To be fair, this law should be enforced on the platforms as well where if selected location = NYC, salary range field must be filled out. Seems like they just added the salary range as text in the description. I would put some more burden on these hiring platforms as well.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pimterry 4y ago
14 minutes later, it now has a salary range: > $175K-210K base compensation 'Post about the problem on HN' shows its power once again.
- godelski 4y ago
  Now let's see if they add maternity leave to their list of benefits. They add paternity leave, but do they expect all applicants to be male?
  - giarc 4y ago
    Just call it parental leave and cover all bases.
  - barbazoo 4y ago
    Now it's "parental leave" :)
    - pitaj 4y ago
      I suspect it was a mistake/typo (someone confused "paternity" for the general term).
      - godelski 4y ago
        Probably this. I'm also second guessing myself that _I_ didn't read it wrong lol
        mediaman 4y ago
        Fun to watch young tech companies learn how to do HR in real time!
- pyrrhotech 4y ago
  This seems low for 5+ YoE in NYC
Osiris 4y ago
NY is not the only state that requires jobs postings to include salary ranges.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  NY state does not require job postings to include salary ranges, only New York City (and technically not for all job postings).
roflyear 4y ago
I believe Rutter was one of the examples, tho I did not see them today - maybe an older post, but the UI of that page is super familiar. Glad to see they updated - but anything less than $220k is hard to swallow for non-remote in NYC.

cyrieu 4y ago

Hey sorry about that this is our job posting - we duplicated a another one and missed adding that information, thanks for catching that! We added in the salary range. Feel free to email us if you have any other questions!

josefresco 4y ago
Didn't mean to call you out specifically, just wanted to see if OP was correct. Thanks for being so responsive, it's a good sign for applicants!
JustSomeNobody 4y ago
Why not add it by default?
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  > Why not add it by default? IIUC, it's generally held that in a price negotiation, the first party that posts a number is at a disadvantage. Starting salary is one kind of price negotiation. So I can understand why employers would be reluctant to do that.
  - shanebellone 4y ago
    This is probably true but also bad practice imo. It instantly signals that employers value leverage rather than employees.
  - bilsbie 4y ago
    Wouldn’t the concept of anchoring say the opposite though? I’ve always wondered that. My guess is if you say too high of a number they don’t take you seriously so anchoring can’t work?
  - bluedevil2k 4y ago
    Yeah, this isn’t correct. All things being equal, the first to post a number is at a big advantage. As another commenter pointed out, this is called anchoring. Think about a house being sold in a normal market, the price is always well above its market value to anchor the numbers high. The reason companies don’t want to post a salary number is all things aren’t equal: they have far more information on pay than you do. Vastly more. So they have the luxury of letting your uninformed ask be the anchor point cause they know it’ll probably be low. Plus, if someone asks too high, they can ignore it and move on. They (often but not always) have the luxury of choosing the lowest asks to move forward with.
    - noir_lord 4y ago
      Also they might be underpaying their current staff.
      - roflyear 4y ago
        This is the truth of it. They have devs who are making $130k who have worked there for 4 years and they don't want to give them a raise to $200k.
        Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
        I know a guy that works at a very well-known tech company and has been a software engineer for over 15 years for them and is only being paid $120K. He says "They treat me well", and I'm like, no they fucking don't. They don't value your work anywhere close to what it should be. I told him that he could easily triple his TC by going almost literally anywhere else. I used to work for said company. I left because the salary was way below market and literally doubled my salary from $100K to $200K at my new digs. I made it no secret to my old manager that money was the #1 reason why I was leaving (#2 being that the team I was working on was basically falling apart due to internal politics), and he acknowledged that salaries are significantly below market and that HR is promising updates to salary bands to bring them up to market within the next couple months. Spoiler alert: It's been 1 1/2 years since I left, and the couple people I talk to from there say nothing has changed.
- TreeRingCounter 4y ago
- throwaway98797 4y ago
  posting a number can help confident people but hurts others example, developer makes 100k, has imposter syndrome, sees a great job that has an internal range of 150k-200k. if the dev knew the range they’d think no way they would qualify for THAT much money. the company would happily pay at bottom range for them, but instead they don’t even see the developer. ranges select for confident people.
  - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
    I'm sorry but... what kind of victim blaming nonsense is this? Seeing a salary range intimidates people?! That's 100% worth the cost, friend. Knowing what you're applying for/to is absolutely critical information, and having it before applying is a substantial amount of leverage in any negotiation. That's like saying people shouldn't post where a job is because some people might not live there, or not to post C++ jobs because not everyone knows C++...
    - throwaway98797 4y ago
      i’ve had nearly 10+ jobs and i never knew the range also on higher levels comp comes from equity base pay of $100k is immaterial if RSU/equity is $500k i do believe it hurts the people in weaker positions vs helping cause high comp individuals know how to play the game anyways
      - SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
        There's just so much here in your small comment (you've burned through "nearly 10+ jobs" and you're giving advice to people?!) I can't really address this but to say you're completely wrong that it hurts people to know what they'd get paid for a job, and I think that's pretty obviously the case, as do most folks, including the good people of New York who passed a law requiring it.
      - badpun 4y ago
        If you care about people in weaker positions so much, perhaps develop a web plugin for them which will hide the compensation amount on the job pages?
awb 4y ago
Well done for acknowledging it and correcting it so quickly. Mistakes happen, especially at startups.
codegeek 4y ago
To be fair, this law should be enforced on the platforms as well where if selected location = NYC, salary range field must be filled out. Seems like they just added the salary range as text in the description. I would put some more burden on these hiring platforms as well.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pimterry 4y ago

14 minutes later, it now has a salary range: > $175K-210K base compensation 'Post about the problem on HN' shows its power once again.

godelski 4y ago
Now let's see if they add maternity leave to their list of benefits. They add paternity leave, but do they expect all applicants to be male?
- giarc 4y ago
  Just call it parental leave and cover all bases.
- barbazoo 4y ago
  Now it's "parental leave" :)
  - pitaj 4y ago
    I suspect it was a mistake/typo (someone confused "paternity" for the general term).
    - godelski 4y ago
      Probably this. I'm also second guessing myself that _I_ didn't read it wrong lol
      - mediaman 4y ago
        Fun to watch young tech companies learn how to do HR in real time!
pyrrhotech 4y ago
This seems low for 5+ YoE in NYC

Osiris 4y ago

NY is not the only state that requires jobs postings to include salary ranges.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
NY state does not require job postings to include salary ranges, only New York City (and technically not for all job postings).

roflyear 4y ago

I believe Rutter was one of the examples, tho I did not see them today - maybe an older post, but the UI of that page is super familiar. Glad to see they updated - but anything less than $220k is hard to swallow for non-remote in NYC.