5 ms·

Seems nice if all you need are bobbies on the beat, but where do specialists come from in this anarchist utopia? Protection rackets generally form pretty quick

Seems nice if all you need are bobbies on the beat, but where do specialists come from in this anarchist utopia? Protection rackets generally form pretty quickly in power vacuums, and in this scenario, the criminals are more experienced and better equipped than a force of volunteer rookies. Also seems like a good place to operate a computer crime group, since none of these short-term police officers are likely to even know where to start looking for a gang of hackers and scammers.

maxbond 4y ago
So, it's not that there would be a power vacuum, it's that there would be horizontal power structures instead of hierarchical power structures. If you snapped Thanos's glove and the state suddenly stopped existing, there's no reason to expect that would go well, I'd agree with that. You'd have to carefully dismantle it, piece by piece, and replace them with better structures. You'd need to maintain and adapt those structures as you encounter problems and as the world changes. If people can just get the things they need or want straightforwardly I don't think many would choose to get them by force. I don't think people form mafias because they're just looking for something to do, I think mafias usually form because a certain ethnic group or social class isn't able to get what they require through licit means. Eg, when Italians arrived in the United States, they faced immense prejudice and discrimination in hiring. In my view this is a mirror image of the hierarchy that was oppressing them to begin with. Will there be super sophisticated criminals who need dedicated, specialist investigators to pursue? It seems like reasonable speculation. In that case though, these specialists don't need to be the same people as beat cops. A big problem with the police is that their mission is too broad and they can't possibly to a good job across the board. If we have a big computer crime problem we can form a computer crime investigation team, with various checks and balances, and all they're empowered to do is investigate and to present their findings to the other mechanisms of the justice system.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  pedantry: I believe the mafia was actually native to sicily, but did develop for similar reasons you posit. The absentee-landlord Normans had wiped out whatever indigenous civil society apparatus there was in an attempt to arrogate all power to themselves, and so the mafia arose...
  - maxbond 4y ago
    Not pedantry, thanks for keeping me honest!
- YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
  In this hypothetical society there's one thing that can't be obtained legitimately: Power over other human beings. Look around you. Read the news. A lot of people desire power over other human beings more than they desire anything else. If mafias form because people can't get what they want through legitimate means, and people can't get power, mafias will form for the primary purpose of getting power, unless actively suppressed.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    It's possible. "Active suppression" doesn't need to be "authoritarian rule" though. For the most part people who want to gain abusive power over other humans so so through the licit means our society provides, eg, they get into a position of authority and then be corrupt. Starving them of easily abused institutions would go along way. If they try to form a mafia it'll need to be broken up through the most peaceful means available. The earlier you're able to intervene, the more peaceful the means you're able to use. So for instance of someone is having trouble managing their rage and depression, and their community recognizes this in their adolescence, there's a lot that can be done to help them. In our current society, these things generally go unnoticed and when they are noticed, it's treated as an individual failing, and you're more likely to be abandoned than offered empathy and assistance. In my experience, hurt people hurt people. If a mature mafia forms and is causing a ruckus, we'll need to overwhelm them with numbers and strategy, abolish their mafia, and take measures to prevent them from doing more harm. I believe that this would be rare, however. People aren't generally cruel to each other, and when they are it's often because they've suffered abuse. So it's a virtuous cycle, as we eliminate sources of abuse, abuse becomes rarer. I don't pretend it'll disappear entirely, but all we need to do to form a good society is reduce it to a manageable level and constantly be improving. Perfection is impossible, but it is not required. What about turning this criticism around? Some people desire to abuse other people and to have power over them. Okay. What does that say about the structure of our current society? If we take this to be true, doesn't that suggest we should reform or abolish institutions that enable people like that? What happens if we take that to it's logical conclusion?
    - maxbond 4y ago

maxbond 4y ago

So, it's not that there would be a power vacuum, it's that there would be horizontal power structures instead of hierarchical power structures. If you snapped Thanos's glove and the state suddenly stopped existing, there's no reason to expect that would go well, I'd agree with that. You'd have to carefully dismantle it, piece by piece, and replace them with better structures. You'd need to maintain and adapt those structures as you encounter problems and as the world changes. If people can just get the things they need or want straightforwardly I don't think many would choose to get them by force. I don't think people form mafias because they're just looking for something to do, I think mafias usually form because a certain ethnic group or social class isn't able to get what they require through licit means. Eg, when Italians arrived in the United States, they faced immense prejudice and discrimination in hiring. In my view this is a mirror image of the hierarchy that was oppressing them to begin with. Will there be super sophisticated criminals who need dedicated, specialist investigators to pursue? It seems like reasonable speculation. In that case though, these specialists don't need to be the same people as beat cops. A big problem with the police is that their mission is too broad and they can't possibly to a good job across the board. If we have a big computer crime problem we can form a computer crime investigation team, with various checks and balances, and all they're empowered to do is investigate and to present their findings to the other mechanisms of the justice system.

082349872349872 4y ago
pedantry: I believe the mafia was actually native to sicily, but did develop for similar reasons you posit. The absentee-landlord Normans had wiped out whatever indigenous civil society apparatus there was in an attempt to arrogate all power to themselves, and so the mafia arose...
- maxbond 4y ago
  Not pedantry, thanks for keeping me honest!
YurgenJurgensen 4y ago
In this hypothetical society there's one thing that can't be obtained legitimately: Power over other human beings. Look around you. Read the news. A lot of people desire power over other human beings more than they desire anything else. If mafias form because people can't get what they want through legitimate means, and people can't get power, mafias will form for the primary purpose of getting power, unless actively suppressed.
- maxbond 4y ago
  It's possible. "Active suppression" doesn't need to be "authoritarian rule" though. For the most part people who want to gain abusive power over other humans so so through the licit means our society provides, eg, they get into a position of authority and then be corrupt. Starving them of easily abused institutions would go along way. If they try to form a mafia it'll need to be broken up through the most peaceful means available. The earlier you're able to intervene, the more peaceful the means you're able to use. So for instance of someone is having trouble managing their rage and depression, and their community recognizes this in their adolescence, there's a lot that can be done to help them. In our current society, these things generally go unnoticed and when they are noticed, it's treated as an individual failing, and you're more likely to be abandoned than offered empathy and assistance. In my experience, hurt people hurt people. If a mature mafia forms and is causing a ruckus, we'll need to overwhelm them with numbers and strategy, abolish their mafia, and take measures to prevent them from doing more harm. I believe that this would be rare, however. People aren't generally cruel to each other, and when they are it's often because they've suffered abuse. So it's a virtuous cycle, as we eliminate sources of abuse, abuse becomes rarer. I don't pretend it'll disappear entirely, but all we need to do to form a good society is reduce it to a manageable level and constantly be improving. Perfection is impossible, but it is not required. What about turning this criticism around? Some people desire to abuse other people and to have power over them. Okay. What does that say about the structure of our current society? If we take this to be true, doesn't that suggest we should reform or abolish institutions that enable people like that? What happens if we take that to it's logical conclusion?
  - maxbond 4y ago