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My layman theory is that therapy is only useful for second-order emotional suffering. Many people are miserable because they live miserable lives, identifying

My layman theory is that therapy is only useful for second-order emotional suffering. Many people are miserable because they live miserable lives, identifying the emotions involved and the needs that aren't being met is good but the emotions are there and the needs aren't being met for very practical reasons, and reframing isn't going to do jack to solve it. That's first-order emotional suffering. Then there are the emotional pathologies that develop on top of that, the second-order emotional suffering, and that can be treated by therapy. For example, if you're miserable because you're poor, therapy won't help solve the anguish and stress of making rent, but it can solve second-order emotions like feelings of shame and self-hatred. Or if you have a life altering accident, it won't solve the baseline misery dealt by the terrible life consequences, but it can help with the residual panic attacks from the trauma of the accident.

lazide 4y ago
Most poor people are not emotionally miserable, in my experience. They deal with very tough situations, but have learned to find happiness in them. A lot of emotional misery is found in other groups, often groups with more material wealth, because they haven’t learned to find happiness in their circumstances. Happiness is just as often about letting yourself be happy than anything else, and that’s a cultural and emotional situation independent of circumstances.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  I grew up in Africa. I’ve seen poverty that I suspect is out-of-bounds, for many folks on this forum. I can say that the most astonishing thing, to me, is the healthy attitude, of many of the folks I’ve met, that live under those circumstances. “Healthy” does not mean “happy.” They desperately want to escape their circumstances, but they do accept their challenges, and do their best to live [a hard] life.
  - lazide 4y ago
    My guess is a lot of what we’re talking about comes down to expectations, and definitions. I haven’t experienced what you have to that extent directly. I was poor growing up by American standards, and that is a different bar. I’m curious about your take on this - Someone being able to enjoy their kids growing up, or see the value they bring to the people in their lives, or feel the importance in their role in keeping everyone alive, is a large part of my definition of happiness. It goes more towards ‘contentment’? Or purpose. It includes processing the hard things, and finding the value in getting through them too, and the feeling of being good at what someone does and who they are. For others, their definition of happy is the excited state of enjoyment (laughing, glee, etc). For most, it’s a mix of the two. Near as I can tell, getting rich often requires a significant degree of not being reasonable or content with the status quo. Sometimes ‘getting rich’ here is more about not being poor. Sometimes, it can be ‘there is never enough’. Being content for someone in that state can happen of course, and after someone gets to a certain degree of wealth, tools to make it easier to get or maintain it are more readily available, but so are tools to hurt oneself. I’ve seen a lot of people hurt themselves on this front over the years. A lot of the contentment elements here are also quite difficult to feel productively for someone with material wealth. Mucking out a chicken coop because it’s nasty and you need healthy chickens to survive is a very concrete thing with a clear chain from ‘problem’ to ‘solved’. Trying to get Alpha out of stocks is not.
qgc 4y ago
The idea here is adaptive traits becoming maladaptive over time as a situation changes. So you develop a coping mechanism that, temporarily, is better than not coping with the situation you're in, but as either the situation changes or becomes long-term, it ends up disrupting your ability to engage in higher-order functioning or pursue "happiness" or "meaning" in your life. The fact that stuff happens in life that makes you suffer is something you generally learn to deal with early on, and most people can handle a bit of suffering, but where things get challenging is when the "second order" stuff stops you from being able to see the goal you're shooting for, the light at the end what makes the suffering something you were able to tolerate.

lazide 4y ago

Most poor people are not emotionally miserable, in my experience. They deal with very tough situations, but have learned to find happiness in them. A lot of emotional misery is found in other groups, often groups with more material wealth, because they haven’t learned to find happiness in their circumstances. Happiness is just as often about letting yourself be happy than anything else, and that’s a cultural and emotional situation independent of circumstances.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I grew up in Africa. I’ve seen poverty that I suspect is out-of-bounds, for many folks on this forum. I can say that the most astonishing thing, to me, is the healthy attitude, of many of the folks I’ve met, that live under those circumstances. “Healthy” does not mean “happy.” They desperately want to escape their circumstances, but they do accept their challenges, and do their best to live [a hard] life.
- lazide 4y ago
  My guess is a lot of what we’re talking about comes down to expectations, and definitions. I haven’t experienced what you have to that extent directly. I was poor growing up by American standards, and that is a different bar. I’m curious about your take on this - Someone being able to enjoy their kids growing up, or see the value they bring to the people in their lives, or feel the importance in their role in keeping everyone alive, is a large part of my definition of happiness. It goes more towards ‘contentment’? Or purpose. It includes processing the hard things, and finding the value in getting through them too, and the feeling of being good at what someone does and who they are. For others, their definition of happy is the excited state of enjoyment (laughing, glee, etc). For most, it’s a mix of the two. Near as I can tell, getting rich often requires a significant degree of not being reasonable or content with the status quo. Sometimes ‘getting rich’ here is more about not being poor. Sometimes, it can be ‘there is never enough’. Being content for someone in that state can happen of course, and after someone gets to a certain degree of wealth, tools to make it easier to get or maintain it are more readily available, but so are tools to hurt oneself. I’ve seen a lot of people hurt themselves on this front over the years. A lot of the contentment elements here are also quite difficult to feel productively for someone with material wealth. Mucking out a chicken coop because it’s nasty and you need healthy chickens to survive is a very concrete thing with a clear chain from ‘problem’ to ‘solved’. Trying to get Alpha out of stocks is not.

qgc 4y ago

The idea here is adaptive traits becoming maladaptive over time as a situation changes. So you develop a coping mechanism that, temporarily, is better than not coping with the situation you're in, but as either the situation changes or becomes long-term, it ends up disrupting your ability to engage in higher-order functioning or pursue "happiness" or "meaning" in your life. The fact that stuff happens in life that makes you suffer is something you generally learn to deal with early on, and most people can handle a bit of suffering, but where things get challenging is when the "second order" stuff stops you from being able to see the goal you're shooting for, the light at the end what makes the suffering something you were able to tolerate.