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All drugs should be legalized. That is the only solution. You should be able to buy cocaine, heroin, fentanyl at the local grocery store. No question asked. Ma
by 323 4y ago
All drugs should be legalized. That is the only solution.
You should be able to buy cocaine, heroin, fentanyl at the local grocery store. No question asked. Maybe even subsidize it for poor people who can't afford market prices.
The local pharmacy should provide training on how to inject/consume them safely and give for free the associated consumables.
- ndsipa_pomu 4y agoI don't understand why politicians (in the UK) always seem to be scared of legalisation when there's a huge amount of tax that could be generated from it and meanwhile, criminals get all the money and taxpayers have to spend more money trying to catch those criminals.
- Aicy 4y agoBecause it would be hugely unpopular with a mostly conservative voter base, and tax revenue is not what wins elections.
- ndsipa_pomu 4y agoThose older Tory voters were likely having a wild time back in the sixties - they need to get a grip on reality and stop reading the Daily Heil. Anyone that continues voting Tory after all the damage done to the UK is unlikely to be change their vote just due to drug laws being changed.
- dfxm12 4y agoHow popular is it among voters? Below a certain threshold and you'll lose votes if you approach the subject. Once it gets to a certain point, it then becomes useful as a wedge issue, and a wedge issue is only useful to talk about and not really do anything about. That said, only 30% or so support the status quo criminalisation of marijuana. That's past due for some change.
- kodyo 4y agoThe last thing a bureaucracy built to solve a problem wants to do is solve the problem.
- vorpalhex 4y agoHow do you feel that would lead to less deaths given that the deaths from fent are often (but not always) from an intentional dose of fent? The research here also does not support broad legalization: + https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24456133/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24456133/ + https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2019/06/medical-marijuana-does-not-reduce-opioid-deaths.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2019/06/medical-marij... Of special note is that opiod deaths increased as legal prescribed opiods were given more freely.
- paganel 4y agoThis recent HN thread [1] is also related to this issue (the post comments on this [2] Economist article) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33845128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33845128 [2] https://archive.ph/fzBoE https://archive.ph/fzBoE
- Joker_vD 4y agoOne marvels as to why e.g. Russia or China don't covertly push funds and efforts into drug legalization in the US if that would widely harm its population and weaken it as a whole. But to the best of my knowledge, they apparently don't, so this is a (somewhat weak) argument in favour of legalization.
- stephen_g 4y agoWhy do you think “Russia or China” would actually care in any way to want to harm random Americans?
- tstrimple 4y agoI don't necessarily subscribe to this belief, but they wouldn't care about the random individuals but rather the societal level impacts of such a policy should they think it would be disruptive.
- mitchdoogle 4y agoBecause they are interested in destabilizing the country in order to make themselves more powerful on a global scale. Although I think they are doing much better in that front by manufacturing all of our stuff (china anyway)
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoBut that would upset the teetotalers and puritans. Also if drugs were legal, how would one look down on poor people and blame them for their situation in life on moral failings like addiction?
- Joker_vD 4y agoAlcohol is legal. That doesn't stop people to blame poor people for being lazy drunkards, does it?
- 323 4y ago> But that would upset the teetotalers and puritans. It's easy to cater to them. In the packet that legalizes all drugs you also remove all gun control laws. So you make all drugs and all guns legal in all circumstances and at all times, just like it should be in a free country. The state should not control what you put in your mouth or veins or what you carry in your pocket.
- TheOtherHobbes 4y agoAnd if I don't want some rando putting a bullet in me in a mall or school shooting spree what "freedom" do I have to avoid that? And don't say "carry" because that's been proven time and again to be utter nonsense in practice.
- 323 4y agoPeople make the same argument about drugs: what if a druggie attacks me with a knife in a mall.
- factsarelolz 4y agoPerhaps adapt to the risk in which the activities you put yourself in? Plenty of people go to the mall or school without catching a bullet from a "rando"
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoI'm genuinely unsure if this is satire. The last time someone tried to shoot up a mall they got clapped by some rando who was carrying. The last time someone tried to shoot up a school the police prevented anyone from interfering while they went at it for 40min. Your selection of examples seem specifically chosen to highlight the failure of the policy you are at least pretending to advocate for. Existing gun laws do basically nothing to stop the kind of pre-meditated violence of which you speak. At best they act as a marginal deterrent and that marginal effect carries over into the actual results. Frankly, I don't think that crimes of pure possession (for guns, drugs or any other vice) should be crimes except with some specific time and place qualifiers (bomb at home -> ok, bomb in airport -> not ok).
- dclowd9901 4y agoYour argument is intriguing but you haven’t explained why this would help keep people from dying of fentanyl overdoses?
- 323 4y agoA lot die of fentanyl without even knowing, because fentanyl was added to another drug to increase it's potency. My proposal would sell pharma-grade drugs of known quality/dose in grocery stores at affordable prices. The illegal market would die overnight.
- rospaya 4y agoAnd increase the number of users which cause substantial problems on its own - crime, addiction, disease, various family issues.
- kirstenbirgit 4y agoThese problems are caused by criminalization.
- umeshunni 4y agoRight, because alcohol doesn’t cause any of those problems.
- mitchdoogle 4y agoIf you think alcohol should be legal then why not opioids? I just don't see how people can square these view points. We admit that alcohol can cause all sorts of health issues, including addiction and abuse, but it is legal anyway. And as a result it is well regulated (we know what we're getting) and it is easy to obtain (we don't have to deal with shady people in potentially dangerous situations). If someone is an alcoholic, then their family may ask them to seek help, but most of us will just ignore it because it is that person's problem and is not affecting us. There isn't any restrictions on alcohol content in most places - you can buy 180 proof grain alcohol just as easily as weak beer. So why not treat other drugs the exact same way? There is no way to be logically consistent about this UNLESS you think that alcohol should also be illegal.
- otabdeveloper4 4y agoWe already tried that, it doesn't work. Hint: tobacco and alcohol deaths didn't decrease when tobacco and alcohol sales were decriminalized. What does work is making the cost of drugs prohibitive by placing great transaction costs on the drug trade. (See: taxes and tobacco.)
- mitchdoogle 4y agoWhat do you mean it doesn't work? The point is for people to know what they are buying. If it's legal then products would be better regulated and consistent. Heroin should be completely heroin, not heroin with a bit of fentanyl thrown in.
- HeyImAlex 4y agoThe article mentions fentanyl is more deadly but also 5-10 times cheaper than the opiates it replaces. $4 for an oxy clone is wildly accessible. No telling if I would have tried it as a teenager had they been that cheap and available.
- smartbit 4y agoOxyContin caused something in of the order of 500.000 death in the USA, if I remember well from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Beauty_and_the_Bloodshed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_the_Beauty_and_the_Bloodsh.... I wonder how this relates to the number of death related to Fentanyl? Wouldn't this be a better title? Washington faltered as Fentanyl & OxyCotion gripped America
- Zak 4y agoDeath and disability from methanol-contaminated alcohol decreased when alcohol sales were re-legalized in the US. This is partly due to the government mandating the inclusion of methanol in denatured alcohol for industrial purposes. Many of the current overdose deaths are not the result of people knowingly taking an acutely risky dose; they are instead the result of black market drugs having unpredictable composition and purity. It is likely that drug legalization would reduce that kind of overdose. Note I wrote legalization rather than decriminalization. The distinction is that with legalization, production and distribution are legal, while decriminalization just removes serious penalties for end users.
- mynameishere 4y agoSure would fix it. By killing them faster
- Joker_vD 4y agoChemical weapons of personal destruction. What an ingenious invention. And the victims even pay for them!
- TheOtherHobbes 4y agoIt's tempting to wonder if this isn't stochastic eugenics. If you die, you weren't fit to survive. So - you know - no real loss to anyone who matters.
- Joker_vD 4y agoConsidering that everyone dies sooner or later, your line of reasoning is mildly amusing.
- rr888 4y agoThat was my thought. Legalizing to me means likely way for the homeless population to clear them up more quickly.
- mitchdoogle 4y agoI know you are jesting in a terrible and frankly evil way. But why would it kill anyone faster? The whole issue with fentanyl is that people either don't know they are taking it or they are ignorant about its potency. Legalizing it would solve the former and probably help the latter through informative labeling and more openness among users about responsible and safe use.
- Pxtl 4y agoWouldn't the more reasonable approach be over-the-counter legalization of a safer opiate? Fent is inherently dangerous because it is difficult to dose safely. Addicts want an opiate, and fent is the cheap and available one.
- louky 4y agoI think a reboot of Bayer Heroin (tm) would be better received - from my understanding Fentanyl and similar drugs don't have the euphoria or length of effect of OG Diacetylmorphine.
- banannaise 4y agoPretty much. Most modern drugs are a far, far more potent version of something that came before. Depending on how far you go with it, you could even apply this principle to the cigarette. The safer, lower-dose version is to chew tobacco leaves. There are many reasons for the popularization of more concentrated drugs, but the two big ones are that more potent drugs generally make for cheaper doses, and that it's more profitable to create addicts than to create satisfied customers. The latter is also an increasing problem outside the drug space, e.g. gambling and pay-to-win video games.
- adrr 4y agoOpiates used to be unregulated in the US and the US had an opiate addiction issue. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/inside-story-americas-19th-century-opiate-addiction-180967673/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/inside-story-americas...
- snvzz 4y agoAnd yet, it never got as bad as right now. Congrats, prohibition has made the situation worse.
- ajross 4y agoI don't know that that follows. Fentanyl's cost to the end user is like 100x cheaper than 19th century opium (or more? I can't find data but that's probably about right). Don't market economics explain the issue better than regulatory decisions?
- snvzz 4y agoI would say safe consumption (of a not random concentration) matters, particularly as reflected in the death toll.
- adrr 4y ago1 out 200 people addicted to opiates during that time is worse than the reported 10 million users[1] of opiates in the country. Overdoses is higher because Fentanyl is stronger and easier to overdose off of than morphine. 1. https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/opioid-crisis-statistics/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/opioid-crisis...
- ericpauley 4y agoAm I missing something? 10 million/330 milllion is 6x higher than 1/200.
- 4y ago
- thepasswordis 4y agoThe problem is not that people don’t know they’re using fentanyl.
- mitchdoogle 4y agoThat is the problem according to the article that prompted this post. Organized crime is selling $4 pills that contain fentanyl and look like oxycodone pills when black market oxycodone (the real thing) sells for $30 a pill.
- thepasswordis 4y agoThe people buying blues aren’t stupid and they know and will tell you what they are buying.
- nordsieck 4y ago> All drugs should be legalized. That is the only solution. > You should be able to buy cocaine, heroin, fentanyl at the local grocery store. No question asked. Maybe even subsidize it for poor people who can't afford market prices. I think that a basic familiarity of the Chinese experience with British opium would suggest that full legalization for the more dangerous drugs is not a panacea.
- est 4y ago> a basic familiarity of the Chinese experience with British opium After the wars, the Qing China quickly became top opium exporter.
- jdmtheNth 4y agoThat would make sense only if taxpayers weren't on the hook for the consequences.
- refurb 4y agoThere is a theory that seems correct - when a drug is banned, the black market moves towards the most potent version available. Even during prohibition it was way easier and profitable to make bootleg whiskey than beer. Why? It’s easier to conceal, packs the most punch, and is the most profitable by weight. Instead of making heroin legal, make opium legal. Or even weaker opioids like codeine. Then people who wanted an opioid high would have access to legal, clean, less potent opioids that could be taken in a less harmful way than IVing black tar heroin.
- thehappypm 4y agoMarijuana seems to be an exception to this. After legalization it’s easier to get more and more and more concentrated versions
- amanaplanacanal 4y agoBut I would assume the more dangerous "research chemical" versions aren't used any more in those areas where legal weed is available.
- refurb 4y agoGood point, but it would be interesting to see how widely used they are?
- rayiner 4y agoDamn libertarians. You can also ban drugs, imprison or kill the drug dealers, and ostracize the drug users. Works in Asia.
- amanaplanacanal 4y agoIn the US we are moving away from that model because for the user, the cure was worse than the disease.
- rayiner 4y agoWhatever the US is doing is working great! Annual drug overdose deaths have only quintupled since 2000: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-11/u-s-overdose-deaths-soared-15-to-top-100-000-in-2021-cdc-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-11/u-s-overd.... Almost 40 times higher than Bangladesh with only double the population. Bang up job guys.
- ladeagaytf 4y agoTurn off the narcan tap and let the wildfire clear the underbrush… or commit to sisyphean forestry policy.
- kodyo 4y agoIt's certainly not the fault of libertarians that none of that is happening now, and we have huge governments.
- d23 4y ago> You should be able to buy cocaine, heroin, fentanyl at the local grocery store. No question asked. Maybe even subsidize it for poor people who can't afford market prices. One of the most unhinged things I've read on this site, and that's saying something.