5 ms·

My Argentinian friends tend to view everything that happens in Argentina as part of either some nefarious plot by the US government, or the glorious struggle of

My Argentinian friends tend to view everything that happens in Argentina as part of either some nefarious plot by the US government, or the glorious struggle of the brave Argentinian people against the US government. They would certainly view anything that happens with Binance, or even FTX/SBF as the US government trying to screw them over.

ivanmontillam 4y ago
I try not to be like that, but sometimes it appears like so. Most of the time it's truly hard to see any alternative explanation, and I invest a lot to have the most nurtured worldview possible, with all the points of view considered. And even then, it's really hard to think in plausible alternative explanations that do not feel like pulling hair out of the head. It's like duck typing: walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has duck legs. It must be a duck.
- pavlov 4y ago
  The US Department of Justice suspects Binance of processing over $10 billion in illicit funds during 2022 alone. Whatever goes on in Argentinian P2P markets is an insignificant blip against this background. It sounds like you have a bit of a persecution complex going on. It's unfortunate if the effects on your corner of the world are negative, but it's really not even on the Americans' map most of the time. How about creating a local solution for your local needs instead of relying on a company like Binance whose operating principles are: "We are not headquartered anywhere, our auditor says they don't know what our parent company is named, but we'll happily transmit money to Iran"? That always seemed like it might catch up with them...
  - ivanmontillam 4y ago
    Because such a company would need to be regulated. I'm not against regulation, the problem is that once you get regulation you also accept to use the legal currency exchange rate, which is expensive for most use cases. Let me provide accurate, real-world examples: - 1 USD = 171.276 ARS (according to XE's website, this is the official exchange rate). - 1 USD = 311.25 ARS (according to Binance's P2P exchange, this is the parallel/black market rate). In Argentina, most stuff is valued in USD, even if the legal tender is ARS. If you were to buy a $2500 ARS burger with Binance money, that burger costs you $8.03 USD. If you were to buy that same exact burger with a licensed properly regulated exchange, that burger costs you $14.59 USD, almost the double. This might seem like a trivial example, and a few dollars don't seem to make much of a difference. Try the same example with your weekly grocery store basket, rental apartments, payments of a car, etc. It all adds up and most people here don't earn more than $300 USD monthly (valued in black market exchange rate, of course). Plus, Argentina and Venezuela are heavily taxed. EDIT: Formatting of the example.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      The legal currency exchange rate in Argentina is a local problem, not an international one. This is not rare in countries with weak local currencies but it is a bit strange to blame the issuer of the currency that you chose to use privately for your troubles. In the former SovBloc countries the USD and the DM were the currencies of choice for the black market, and the official exchange rate was something ludicrous (you were even forced to exhange a certain amount per day at those rates as a tourist), but on the black market prices were entirely different showing the true value of the local currency (something slightly above the value of the paper it was printed on). That wasn't the fault of either the USA or Germany, that was entirely the fault of the party in charge at the time. One problem with looking at the world through the lens of blaming others for local issues that you declare them in essence unfixable. If you find a way to make such a problem a local one you can actually do something about it.
      - ivanmontillam 4y ago
        Well, I was just pointing out that if Binance were to fall down (and by extension, its P2P functionality), it'd make it harder for the people to access exchange rates that have made their lives easier, the easiest they have been. > One problem with looking at the world through the lens of blaming others for local issues that you declare them in essence unfixable. If you find a way to make such a problem a local one you can actually do something about it. I'd not say foreign actors like the U.S. Government are meddling with Argentinian or Venezuelan economy, but I'd say that if the U.S. Government were to kill Binance, that has negative impact on this side of the world (which is my original comment). The core problem with this economy is that most people are uneducated about political and economical issues. All they want are the local government benefits. The state of the economy affects us all local residents, but without the support of the majority I cannot change it singlehandedly. (please don't interpret my comment as defeatist, it's only there's so much a single person can do).
        jacquesm 4y ago
        > Well, I was just pointing out that if Binance were to fall down (and by extension, its P2P functionality), it'd make it harder for the people to access exchange rates that have made their lives easier, the easiest they have been. I get that, but that's not necessarily the fault of the regulators in other countries, much more the fault of the local government not being able to provide their citizens with a stable local currency. > The core problem with this economy is that most people are uneducated about political and economical issues. All they want are the local government benefits. The state of the economy affects us all local residents, but without the support of the majority I cannot change it singlehandedly. I very much sympathize with you, especially in light of the US's past willingness to interfere in those local affairs when it suited their business interests. Even so, the only real solution for this problem can come from inside. Argentina has tremendous potential, natural resources and a whole bunch of other things going for it, I sincerely hope that you and your fellow countrymen will be able to somehow turn this around and make it work.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  The solution to that particular problem is simple, but it won't be found outside of Argentina. Think of it this way: if the fate of a country depends on a company that is not even physically present in that country then your problems are of an entirely different nature. Obviously other countries are not going to hold back on regulatory oversight of financial institutions because of some kind of persecution complex elsewhere, if anything Argentinians will benefit from this because there are fewer ways in which they can lose their money. The typical order in which you address problems like these (looking at it historically) is to first fix your government, then to fix your economy and finally to reap the benefits from that. Argentina looked to me like it was heading in the right direction, this love affair with crypto is at best a distraction.
  - ivanmontillam 4y ago
    No, Argentina is not heading in the right direction in that sense. The economic situation has worsened for the commoner, everything gets more expensive gradually. People have started making concessions on what to buy or not. The government is not fixable at this point, because of the populist agenda (same as Venezuela, but less deadly). > if anything Argentinians will benefit from this because there are fewer ways in which they can lose their money. It turns out the easiest way to lose the money is to keep it sitting at an Argentinian bank. The devaluation is just too violent. If you want to track how to country is doing, please track the black market exchange rate (which is why I claim in my original comment as the true king of the market). Tracking the official exchange rate as you're probably are doing, is not an effective measure as it's seldom used for transactions. For a practical example, see [0]. -- [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33967480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33967480
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      I didn't say 'is', I said 'was'.
unnouinceput 4y ago
Well, housing Nazis tends to put you on, at the very least, a "tread with caution" international list, not to mention on the very infamous Mossad's "blacklist". Argentina and Switzerland are their black sheep for housing Nazis and stealing the Jewish gold.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  That happened 70 years and many governments ago and has absolutely no bearing on international dealings with either Switzerland or Argentina today any more than that dealings with Germany do and has nothing at all to do with Binance.
  - unnouinceput 4y ago
    Don't forget to tell that to Mossad who not even a few years ago hunted down a 90 years old Hungarian dude who was nothing more than a simple guard at one of the concentration camps, forget which one.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      The Mossad's relentless focus and unlimited budget to go after these assholes is commendable. But that is a very long way from seeing the present day Argentina as directly influenced by the Nazis. Laszlo Csatary is probably who you are thinking of. We're rapidly approaching the end of the hunt though, simply because there are fewer and fewer of the escapees still alive.
      - unnouinceput 4y ago
        Which is my point exactly. Relentless focus and unlimited budget and you only get to see the tip of the iceberg in the news. Can you imagine that Mossad is like "we only hunt old Nazis but the countries benefited from their gold we leave them alone and don't meddle in their politics"? Because I don't.
- ReptileMan 4y ago

ivanmontillam 4y ago

I try not to be like that, but sometimes it appears like so. Most of the time it's truly hard to see any alternative explanation, and I invest a lot to have the most nurtured worldview possible, with all the points of view considered. And even then, it's really hard to think in plausible alternative explanations that do not feel like pulling hair out of the head. It's like duck typing: walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has duck legs. It must be a duck.

pavlov 4y ago
The US Department of Justice suspects Binance of processing over $10 billion in illicit funds during 2022 alone. Whatever goes on in Argentinian P2P markets is an insignificant blip against this background. It sounds like you have a bit of a persecution complex going on. It's unfortunate if the effects on your corner of the world are negative, but it's really not even on the Americans' map most of the time. How about creating a local solution for your local needs instead of relying on a company like Binance whose operating principles are: "We are not headquartered anywhere, our auditor says they don't know what our parent company is named, but we'll happily transmit money to Iran"? That always seemed like it might catch up with them...
- ivanmontillam 4y ago
  Because such a company would need to be regulated. I'm not against regulation, the problem is that once you get regulation you also accept to use the legal currency exchange rate, which is expensive for most use cases. Let me provide accurate, real-world examples: - 1 USD = 171.276 ARS (according to XE's website, this is the official exchange rate). - 1 USD = 311.25 ARS (according to Binance's P2P exchange, this is the parallel/black market rate). In Argentina, most stuff is valued in USD, even if the legal tender is ARS. If you were to buy a $2500 ARS burger with Binance money, that burger costs you $8.03 USD. If you were to buy that same exact burger with a licensed properly regulated exchange, that burger costs you $14.59 USD, almost the double. This might seem like a trivial example, and a few dollars don't seem to make much of a difference. Try the same example with your weekly grocery store basket, rental apartments, payments of a car, etc. It all adds up and most people here don't earn more than $300 USD monthly (valued in black market exchange rate, of course). Plus, Argentina and Venezuela are heavily taxed. EDIT: Formatting of the example.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    The legal currency exchange rate in Argentina is a local problem, not an international one. This is not rare in countries with weak local currencies but it is a bit strange to blame the issuer of the currency that you chose to use privately for your troubles. In the former SovBloc countries the USD and the DM were the currencies of choice for the black market, and the official exchange rate was something ludicrous (you were even forced to exhange a certain amount per day at those rates as a tourist), but on the black market prices were entirely different showing the true value of the local currency (something slightly above the value of the paper it was printed on). That wasn't the fault of either the USA or Germany, that was entirely the fault of the party in charge at the time. One problem with looking at the world through the lens of blaming others for local issues that you declare them in essence unfixable. If you find a way to make such a problem a local one you can actually do something about it.
    - ivanmontillam 4y ago
      Well, I was just pointing out that if Binance were to fall down (and by extension, its P2P functionality), it'd make it harder for the people to access exchange rates that have made their lives easier, the easiest they have been. > One problem with looking at the world through the lens of blaming others for local issues that you declare them in essence unfixable. If you find a way to make such a problem a local one you can actually do something about it. I'd not say foreign actors like the U.S. Government are meddling with Argentinian or Venezuelan economy, but I'd say that if the U.S. Government were to kill Binance, that has negative impact on this side of the world (which is my original comment). The core problem with this economy is that most people are uneducated about political and economical issues. All they want are the local government benefits. The state of the economy affects us all local residents, but without the support of the majority I cannot change it singlehandedly. (please don't interpret my comment as defeatist, it's only there's so much a single person can do).
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        > Well, I was just pointing out that if Binance were to fall down (and by extension, its P2P functionality), it'd make it harder for the people to access exchange rates that have made their lives easier, the easiest they have been. I get that, but that's not necessarily the fault of the regulators in other countries, much more the fault of the local government not being able to provide their citizens with a stable local currency. > The core problem with this economy is that most people are uneducated about political and economical issues. All they want are the local government benefits. The state of the economy affects us all local residents, but without the support of the majority I cannot change it singlehandedly. I very much sympathize with you, especially in light of the US's past willingness to interfere in those local affairs when it suited their business interests. Even so, the only real solution for this problem can come from inside. Argentina has tremendous potential, natural resources and a whole bunch of other things going for it, I sincerely hope that you and your fellow countrymen will be able to somehow turn this around and make it work.
jacquesm 4y ago
The solution to that particular problem is simple, but it won't be found outside of Argentina. Think of it this way: if the fate of a country depends on a company that is not even physically present in that country then your problems are of an entirely different nature. Obviously other countries are not going to hold back on regulatory oversight of financial institutions because of some kind of persecution complex elsewhere, if anything Argentinians will benefit from this because there are fewer ways in which they can lose their money. The typical order in which you address problems like these (looking at it historically) is to first fix your government, then to fix your economy and finally to reap the benefits from that. Argentina looked to me like it was heading in the right direction, this love affair with crypto is at best a distraction.
- ivanmontillam 4y ago
  No, Argentina is not heading in the right direction in that sense. The economic situation has worsened for the commoner, everything gets more expensive gradually. People have started making concessions on what to buy or not. The government is not fixable at this point, because of the populist agenda (same as Venezuela, but less deadly). > if anything Argentinians will benefit from this because there are fewer ways in which they can lose their money. It turns out the easiest way to lose the money is to keep it sitting at an Argentinian bank. The devaluation is just too violent. If you want to track how to country is doing, please track the black market exchange rate (which is why I claim in my original comment as the true king of the market). Tracking the official exchange rate as you're probably are doing, is not an effective measure as it's seldom used for transactions. For a practical example, see [0]. -- [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33967480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33967480
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I didn't say 'is', I said 'was'.

unnouinceput 4y ago

Well, housing Nazis tends to put you on, at the very least, a "tread with caution" international list, not to mention on the very infamous Mossad's "blacklist". Argentina and Switzerland are their black sheep for housing Nazis and stealing the Jewish gold.

jacquesm 4y ago
That happened 70 years and many governments ago and has absolutely no bearing on international dealings with either Switzerland or Argentina today any more than that dealings with Germany do and has nothing at all to do with Binance.
- unnouinceput 4y ago
  Don't forget to tell that to Mossad who not even a few years ago hunted down a 90 years old Hungarian dude who was nothing more than a simple guard at one of the concentration camps, forget which one.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    The Mossad's relentless focus and unlimited budget to go after these assholes is commendable. But that is a very long way from seeing the present day Argentina as directly influenced by the Nazis. Laszlo Csatary is probably who you are thinking of. We're rapidly approaching the end of the hunt though, simply because there are fewer and fewer of the escapees still alive.
    - unnouinceput 4y ago
      Which is my point exactly. Relentless focus and unlimited budget and you only get to see the tip of the iceberg in the news. Can you imagine that Mossad is like "we only hunt old Nazis but the countries benefited from their gold we leave them alone and don't meddle in their politics"? Because I don't.
ReptileMan 4y ago