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It's a protected title in most jurisdictions but it's seldom enforced or have exceptions for "software engineer" Although I've heard Professional Engineers Ont

It's a protected title in most jurisdictions but it's seldom enforced or have exceptions for "software engineer" Although I've heard Professional Engineers Ontario made enough noise awhile back and big tech companies had to rename their local job descriptions to "developer" https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=Waterloo,%20Canada&skills=software https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=Waterloo,%... (only "developer") https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=New%20York,%20USA&skills=software https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=New%20York... (only "engineer")

michaelteter 4y ago
A bit ironic that practicing members of Professional Engineers Ontario almost certainly depend on software written by "non-engineers" to successfully do their work.
- T-Winsnes 4y ago
  Difference is that in most jurisdictions those professional engineers are liable if people die because of negligence, the software engineers are most definitively not
  - michaelteter 4y ago
    Is this true in practice, though? I believe it's more likely for a professional engineer to be liable, but surely in projects of any reasonably large scale there would be several layers of engineering management and oversight such that the engineer working on a part of the puzzle wouldn't be liable for a greater architectural flaw...? For example, the Boeing 737 MAX had a high level fatal flaw that existed because of a mismatched collection of arguably correct or valid hardware and software systems. The engineers who designed the more forward set engines probably did their jobs correctly, and the software "engineers" who built the pitch up correction software presumably didn't write bugs. However, the combination of the two were primary factors in the fatal accidents.
    - dijit 4y ago
      This is when it's important to read those lengthy user agreements. I have seen situations where the text had to be changed to keep the software legally culpable. In those cases negligence will lead to prosecution.
    - newsclues 4y ago
      Yes, in Canada engineers have been found liable for the projects they were on, after failing. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.1300878 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.1300878
- canucklady 4y ago
  They also depend on toilets that are cleaned by janitors, should we call them "sanitation engineers"?
  - michaelteter 4y ago
    Take away the software, and how do the professional engineers work? No CAD. No structural analysis. No fluid dynamics simulations. I think that's a bit harder to replace than it is to clean a dirty toilet. Presumably the professional engineers can clean their own toilet if absolutely necessary.
    - Nicksil 4y ago
      >Take away the software, and how do the professional engineers work? No CAD. No structural analysis. No fluid dynamics simulations. Engineering was a thing before software.
      - michaelteter 4y ago
        Is engineering the same now as it was before software? No. It is utterly dependent upon software now. That is my point. The group that wants to protect or maintain ownership of the word "engineer" is dependent upon the people whom it objects to also using that title.
        Nicksil 4y ago
        >Is engineering the same now as it was before software? The core concepts which make engineering engineering? Yeah. >The group that wants to protect or maintain ownership of the word "engineer" is dependent upon the people whom it objects to also using that title. They are as dependent on software as any other institution, on a day-to-day basis, which have transitioned to computerized automation over the last ~60 years. Software aids efficiency. The argument that engineers are incapable of designing and constructing sound solutions without software is unsound.
908B64B197 4y ago
It has more to do with immigration laws. Canada is a popular destination to send workers who simply can't pass the higher bar for US immigration. If they use the term "engineer" in the work description, they won't be able to sponsor visas for candidate without an engineering degree.
- trinovantes 4y ago
  Doesn't explain why Canada job listings are the only country in the world that uses the "developer" title

michaelteter 4y ago

A bit ironic that practicing members of Professional Engineers Ontario almost certainly depend on software written by "non-engineers" to successfully do their work.

T-Winsnes 4y ago
Difference is that in most jurisdictions those professional engineers are liable if people die because of negligence, the software engineers are most definitively not
- michaelteter 4y ago
  Is this true in practice, though? I believe it's more likely for a professional engineer to be liable, but surely in projects of any reasonably large scale there would be several layers of engineering management and oversight such that the engineer working on a part of the puzzle wouldn't be liable for a greater architectural flaw...? For example, the Boeing 737 MAX had a high level fatal flaw that existed because of a mismatched collection of arguably correct or valid hardware and software systems. The engineers who designed the more forward set engines probably did their jobs correctly, and the software "engineers" who built the pitch up correction software presumably didn't write bugs. However, the combination of the two were primary factors in the fatal accidents.
  - dijit 4y ago
    This is when it's important to read those lengthy user agreements. I have seen situations where the text had to be changed to keep the software legally culpable. In those cases negligence will lead to prosecution.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Yes, in Canada engineers have been found liable for the projects they were on, after failing. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.1300878 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.1300878
canucklady 4y ago
They also depend on toilets that are cleaned by janitors, should we call them "sanitation engineers"?
- michaelteter 4y ago
  Take away the software, and how do the professional engineers work? No CAD. No structural analysis. No fluid dynamics simulations. I think that's a bit harder to replace than it is to clean a dirty toilet. Presumably the professional engineers can clean their own toilet if absolutely necessary.
  - Nicksil 4y ago
    >Take away the software, and how do the professional engineers work? No CAD. No structural analysis. No fluid dynamics simulations. Engineering was a thing before software.
    - michaelteter 4y ago
      Is engineering the same now as it was before software? No. It is utterly dependent upon software now. That is my point. The group that wants to protect or maintain ownership of the word "engineer" is dependent upon the people whom it objects to also using that title.
      - Nicksil 4y ago
        >Is engineering the same now as it was before software? The core concepts which make engineering engineering? Yeah. >The group that wants to protect or maintain ownership of the word "engineer" is dependent upon the people whom it objects to also using that title. They are as dependent on software as any other institution, on a day-to-day basis, which have transitioned to computerized automation over the last ~60 years. Software aids efficiency. The argument that engineers are incapable of designing and constructing sound solutions without software is unsound.

908B64B197 4y ago

It has more to do with immigration laws. Canada is a popular destination to send workers who simply can't pass the higher bar for US immigration. If they use the term "engineer" in the work description, they won't be able to sponsor visas for candidate without an engineering degree.

trinovantes 4y ago
Doesn't explain why Canada job listings are the only country in the world that uses the "developer" title