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IIRC in my country (The Netherlands), "engineer" is a protected title like "lawyer". It requires special officially recognized training.

by art0rz 4y ago

dual_dingo 4y ago
Yeah, same in germany. Being an "Ingenieur" requires an academic degree (and studying computer science doesn't grant you the title of "Ingenieur" anyway...)
- jaclaz 4y ago
  I remember (many years ago, so it may be obsolete info) that there was some difference with a "Diplom Ingenieur", or at least I knew a few german Civil Engineers that took some pride in the "Diplom" part.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  Do people still use "Entwickler" in Germany, or are job titles all pretty much Denglish now?
  - dual_dingo 4y ago
    It's still used quite a lot.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Entwickler is pretty common in Berlin, but I've not quantified it as a percentage as I'm definitely not close to C1 standard even now, and have always skipped such adverts in the past: https://www.stepstone.de/jobs/entwickler/in-berlin https://www.stepstone.de/jobs/entwickler/in-berlin And Berlin is (I'm told by everyone here) much more English language than anywhere else in Germany.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Depends on the company and jobs platform. For conservative big names engineering like Bosch, Simenns or traditional mittlestand companies that mostly operate with German customers, yes they still use it. Xing is full of German only job ads. But for software only companies operating international looking to attract foreign talent off LinkeIn, no, it's all English.
- Sebb767 4y ago
  > and studying computer science doesn't grant you the title of "Ingenieur" anyway If your university offers computer science as a bachelor of engineering, it actually does grant you the title.
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  Is the "Dipl. Ing" still being used? I remember Klaus Knopper (the Knopix creator) had this at some point at his website
  - febeling 4y ago
    I don’t think that degree is granted anywhere anymore. I believe around 2005 most german universities switched to granting masters and bachelors, usually „of Science“ for technical subjects. The title is in english, also in german language context.
  - PabloSichert 4y ago
    There's still a couple of universities that offer a "Diplomstudium", e.g. TU Dresden: https://tu-dresden.de/ing/studium/studienangebot https://tu-dresden.de/ing/studium/studienangebot.
- PabloSichert 4y ago
  > and studying computer science doesn't grant you the title of "Ingenieur" anyway That's not correct. E.g., consider the relevant section in the Bavarian engineering law[1] (using Google Translate): > The job title engineer alone or in a word combination may use, > (1) Anyone who has successfully completed an undergraduate degree at a state or state-recognized German university > a) in a technical-scientific subject, > b) which has a standard period of study of at least six full-time semesters and with which at least 180 points can be acquired using the ECTS system and > c) in which the areas of mathematics, computer science, natural sciences and technology predominate; this requirement does not apply to people who have completed an undergraduate degree in industrial engineering and only use the professional title in the word combination industrial engineer Further, my diploma for a Bachelor's in Computer Science from TUM contains the passage: > The graduate is entitled to employ the designation Engineer alone or as part of a compound word. [1] https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayIngG2016-2 https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayIngG2016-2
trinovantes 4y ago
It's a protected title in most jurisdictions but it's seldom enforced or have exceptions for "software engineer" Although I've heard Professional Engineers Ontario made enough noise awhile back and big tech companies had to rename their local job descriptions to "developer" https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=Waterloo,%20Canada&skills=software https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=Waterloo,%... (only "developer") https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=New%20York,%20USA&skills=software https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=New%20York... (only "engineer")
- michaelteter 4y ago
  A bit ironic that practicing members of Professional Engineers Ontario almost certainly depend on software written by "non-engineers" to successfully do their work.
  - T-Winsnes 4y ago
    Difference is that in most jurisdictions those professional engineers are liable if people die because of negligence, the software engineers are most definitively not
    - michaelteter 4y ago
      Is this true in practice, though? I believe it's more likely for a professional engineer to be liable, but surely in projects of any reasonably large scale there would be several layers of engineering management and oversight such that the engineer working on a part of the puzzle wouldn't be liable for a greater architectural flaw...? For example, the Boeing 737 MAX had a high level fatal flaw that existed because of a mismatched collection of arguably correct or valid hardware and software systems. The engineers who designed the more forward set engines probably did their jobs correctly, and the software "engineers" who built the pitch up correction software presumably didn't write bugs. However, the combination of the two were primary factors in the fatal accidents.
      - 4y ago
Galanwe 4y ago
This is the case in France as well, but it's more subtle than that. Engineer ("ingénieur") is both a diploma, a status, and a title. The diploma is regulated by a committee that endorses curriculum for colleges so that they can deliver an engineering degree. It indeed requires some specific training, and not all schools have the endorsement. There _is_ a difference between "I have an MSc in X" and "I am an engineer in X". I think this is what you are referring to. The status can be earned by having the diploma or getting a recognition of skill by experience. It's usually useless in private companies, but opens the door to better social security in public and institutional services. The title (as in job title) is unregulated and can be given to anyone.
- MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
  Well, in French context, one should also add that "X" is often used as an abbreviation for "École polytechnique" - the most prestigious engineering school in France and one of the top 3 most coveted diplomas one can have in the country overall (probably after ENA and maybe HEC in certain contexts).
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    ENA has been closed, replaced by INSP from wikipedia In 2019, President Emmanuel Macron announced he would propose to abolish and replace the ENA. Macron is an ENA graduate himself, but the tight network of ENA graduates influencing the French civil service has been decried by populist protests such as the yellow vests movement as an elite governing class out of touch with the lower social classes. In April 2021, Macron confirmed the closure of the school, calling the closure "the most important reform of the senior public service" since the school's creation in 1945. In January 2022, it has been replaced by the Institut national du service public (INSP).
    - jbn 4y ago
      IMHO you got this slightly wrong: ENA has not been closed, it has merely been renamed to INSP. Which is to say, that there was no true reform in this regard. In the same way business schools are really networks or clubs (there is little learning taking place at BS..), ENA is a club for the highest-ranking civil servants in the country (i.e. no learning happens at ENA/INSP, merely co-opting into the club of those who then should serve the country but instead gut the state for the benefit of their class).
mtts 4y ago
Not “software engineer”, though. Anyone can be one of those. Maybe because it’s an English term?
spicyusername 4y ago
The United States has something similar with the title "Professional engineer". It requires specific licensure and years of training directly under an existing "Professional engineer".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
entropyie 4y ago
As a counterpoint, my "Software Engineering" degree was accredited by our national engineering professional body... to be deemed a "chartered software engineer" I'd have to pay dues and get a referral from a practising engineer. I know one guy who did it, but it confers very few advantages that I can see...

IIRC in my country (The Netherlands), "engineer" is a protected title like "lawyer". It requires special officially recognized training.

by art0rz 4y ago

IIRC in my country (The Netherlands), "engineer" is a protected title like "lawyer". It requires special officially recognized training.

dual_dingo 4y ago

Yeah, same in germany. Being an "Ingenieur" requires an academic degree (and studying computer science doesn't grant you the title of "Ingenieur" anyway...)

jaclaz 4y ago
I remember (many years ago, so it may be obsolete info) that there was some difference with a "Diplom Ingenieur", or at least I knew a few german Civil Engineers that took some pride in the "Diplom" part.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
Do people still use "Entwickler" in Germany, or are job titles all pretty much Denglish now?
- dual_dingo 4y ago
  It's still used quite a lot.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Entwickler is pretty common in Berlin, but I've not quantified it as a percentage as I'm definitely not close to C1 standard even now, and have always skipped such adverts in the past: https://www.stepstone.de/jobs/entwickler/in-berlin https://www.stepstone.de/jobs/entwickler/in-berlin And Berlin is (I'm told by everyone here) much more English language than anywhere else in Germany.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Depends on the company and jobs platform. For conservative big names engineering like Bosch, Simenns or traditional mittlestand companies that mostly operate with German customers, yes they still use it. Xing is full of German only job ads. But for software only companies operating international looking to attract foreign talent off LinkeIn, no, it's all English.
Sebb767 4y ago
> and studying computer science doesn't grant you the title of "Ingenieur" anyway If your university offers computer science as a bachelor of engineering, it actually does grant you the title.
MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
Is the "Dipl. Ing" still being used? I remember Klaus Knopper (the Knopix creator) had this at some point at his website
- febeling 4y ago
  I don’t think that degree is granted anywhere anymore. I believe around 2005 most german universities switched to granting masters and bachelors, usually „of Science“ for technical subjects. The title is in english, also in german language context.
- PabloSichert 4y ago
  There's still a couple of universities that offer a "Diplomstudium", e.g. TU Dresden: https://tu-dresden.de/ing/studium/studienangebot https://tu-dresden.de/ing/studium/studienangebot.
PabloSichert 4y ago
> and studying computer science doesn't grant you the title of "Ingenieur" anyway That's not correct. E.g., consider the relevant section in the Bavarian engineering law[1] (using Google Translate): > The job title engineer alone or in a word combination may use, > (1) Anyone who has successfully completed an undergraduate degree at a state or state-recognized German university > a) in a technical-scientific subject, > b) which has a standard period of study of at least six full-time semesters and with which at least 180 points can be acquired using the ECTS system and > c) in which the areas of mathematics, computer science, natural sciences and technology predominate; this requirement does not apply to people who have completed an undergraduate degree in industrial engineering and only use the professional title in the word combination industrial engineer Further, my diploma for a Bachelor's in Computer Science from TUM contains the passage: > The graduate is entitled to employ the designation Engineer alone or as part of a compound word. [1] https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayIngG2016-2 https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/BayIngG2016-2

trinovantes 4y ago

It's a protected title in most jurisdictions but it's seldom enforced or have exceptions for "software engineer" Although I've heard Professional Engineers Ontario made enough noise awhile back and big tech companies had to rename their local job descriptions to "developer" https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=Waterloo,%20Canada&skills=software https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=Waterloo,%... (only "developer") https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=New%20York,%20USA&skills=software https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?location=New%20York... (only "engineer")

michaelteter 4y ago
A bit ironic that practicing members of Professional Engineers Ontario almost certainly depend on software written by "non-engineers" to successfully do their work.
- T-Winsnes 4y ago
  Difference is that in most jurisdictions those professional engineers are liable if people die because of negligence, the software engineers are most definitively not
  - michaelteter 4y ago
    Is this true in practice, though? I believe it's more likely for a professional engineer to be liable, but surely in projects of any reasonably large scale there would be several layers of engineering management and oversight such that the engineer working on a part of the puzzle wouldn't be liable for a greater architectural flaw...? For example, the Boeing 737 MAX had a high level fatal flaw that existed because of a mismatched collection of arguably correct or valid hardware and software systems. The engineers who designed the more forward set engines probably did their jobs correctly, and the software "engineers" who built the pitch up correction software presumably didn't write bugs. However, the combination of the two were primary factors in the fatal accidents.
    - 4y ago

Galanwe 4y ago

This is the case in France as well, but it's more subtle than that. Engineer ("ingénieur") is both a diploma, a status, and a title. The diploma is regulated by a committee that endorses curriculum for colleges so that they can deliver an engineering degree. It indeed requires some specific training, and not all schools have the endorsement. There _is_ a difference between "I have an MSc in X" and "I am an engineer in X". I think this is what you are referring to. The status can be earned by having the diploma or getting a recognition of skill by experience. It's usually useless in private companies, but opens the door to better social security in public and institutional services. The title (as in job title) is unregulated and can be given to anyone.

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
Well, in French context, one should also add that "X" is often used as an abbreviation for "École polytechnique" - the most prestigious engineering school in France and one of the top 3 most coveted diplomas one can have in the country overall (probably after ENA and maybe HEC in certain contexts).
- fsckboy 4y ago
  ENA has been closed, replaced by INSP from wikipedia In 2019, President Emmanuel Macron announced he would propose to abolish and replace the ENA. Macron is an ENA graduate himself, but the tight network of ENA graduates influencing the French civil service has been decried by populist protests such as the yellow vests movement as an elite governing class out of touch with the lower social classes. In April 2021, Macron confirmed the closure of the school, calling the closure "the most important reform of the senior public service" since the school's creation in 1945. In January 2022, it has been replaced by the Institut national du service public (INSP).
  - jbn 4y ago
    IMHO you got this slightly wrong: ENA has not been closed, it has merely been renamed to INSP. Which is to say, that there was no true reform in this regard. In the same way business schools are really networks or clubs (there is little learning taking place at BS..), ENA is a club for the highest-ranking civil servants in the country (i.e. no learning happens at ENA/INSP, merely co-opting into the club of those who then should serve the country but instead gut the state for the benefit of their class).

mtts 4y ago

Not “software engineer”, though. Anyone can be one of those. Maybe because it’s an English term?

spicyusername 4y ago

The United States has something similar with the title "Professional engineer". It requires specific licensure and years of training directly under an existing "Professional engineer".

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

entropyie 4y ago

As a counterpoint, my "Software Engineering" degree was accredited by our national engineering professional body... to be deemed a "chartered software engineer" I'd have to pay dues and get a referral from a practising engineer. I know one guy who did it, but it confers very few advantages that I can see...