4 ms·

I was describing the old system in Finland, which was similar to many countries in the Continental Europe. Master's degree was the primary undergraduate degree

I was describing the old system in Finland, which was similar to many countries in the Continental Europe. Master's degree was the primary undergraduate degree. Bachelor's degree existed on paper, but it wasn't recognized in the society. People often got their bachelor's and master's on the same day. At some point, politicians started promoting bachelor's degrees to get people graduate faster. The academia accepted that, but the job market didn't, at least not initially. Because people were not familiar with bachelor's degrees, they often didn't consider them serious degrees. Some people knew them but took them as a negative sign. The idea was that if a university degree is a sign that you can achieve something, leaving the university after bachelor's is sign that you failed at that. I left Finland a long time ago, and I'm not familiar with the job market relevance of a bachelor's degree today.

haihaibye 4y ago
Instead of sweeping generalisations you should qualify statements if it only applies to long ago in a small non English speaking country. > I'm not familiar with the job market relevance of a bachelor's degree today. It's OK to say nothing if you have no information to add
- jltsiren 4y ago
  My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degrees. A bachelor's degree from the UK is not at all like one from the US, and the differences between PhDs are even bigger. Many European countries consider master's the primary undergraduate degree. A master's may be a research degree, a taught academic degree with/without a thesis, or a professional degree. Law/medical degrees may be graduate or undergraduate degrees. A bachelor's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a master's degree, and a master's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a doctorate. There may be intermediate degrees between a bachelor's and a master's and between a master's and a doctorate. Not all research doctorates are PhDs. An MD is not necessarily a doctorate, and the doctorate in medicine could be an MD, a PhD, or something else. Having a PhD in medicine may imply that you are not an MD. Whatever your experiences from the academia may be, the academia is not universally like that.
  - haihaibye 4y ago
    > My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degree No. Read again what you wrote. It wasn't a qualified statement about different values in different places, ie "in this culture X is more like Y" it was a general claim with no background: "A bachelor's is a glorified dropout. A master's is the primary academic degree"
    - jltsiren 4y ago
      Remember the last sentence: "Or they could mean something else, depending on which traditions you are used to."

haihaibye 4y ago

Instead of sweeping generalisations you should qualify statements if it only applies to long ago in a small non English speaking country. > I'm not familiar with the job market relevance of a bachelor's degree today. It's OK to say nothing if you have no information to add

jltsiren 4y ago
My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degrees. A bachelor's degree from the UK is not at all like one from the US, and the differences between PhDs are even bigger. Many European countries consider master's the primary undergraduate degree. A master's may be a research degree, a taught academic degree with/without a thesis, or a professional degree. Law/medical degrees may be graduate or undergraduate degrees. A bachelor's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a master's degree, and a master's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a doctorate. There may be intermediate degrees between a bachelor's and a master's and between a master's and a doctorate. Not all research doctorates are PhDs. An MD is not necessarily a doctorate, and the doctorate in medicine could be an MD, a PhD, or something else. Having a PhD in medicine may imply that you are not an MD. Whatever your experiences from the academia may be, the academia is not universally like that.
- haihaibye 4y ago
  > My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degree No. Read again what you wrote. It wasn't a qualified statement about different values in different places, ie "in this culture X is more like Y" it was a general claim with no background: "A bachelor's is a glorified dropout. A master's is the primary academic degree"
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    Remember the last sentence: "Or they could mean something else, depending on which traditions you are used to."