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> Everyone knows what a bachelors is, a master’s is, a doctorate is. This is important. It means something. A bachelor's is a glorified dropout. A master's is

> Everyone knows what a bachelors is, a master’s is, a doctorate is. This is important. It means something. A bachelor's is a glorified dropout. A master's is the primary academic degree. A doctorate is more like a title rather than a degree, and if you do it full-time early in your career, it signifies that you can advance from junior to intermediate positions. Or they could mean something else, depending on which traditions you are used to.

rdtwo 4y ago
Harsh… I think a doctorate often means you are difficult, out of touch and got stuck in a bubble too long
zdragnar 4y ago
I've always understood it as: A bachelor's is an extension of high school. You show you can assimilate knowledge at a professional level. A masters shows you can do extensive research of existing knowledge in a narrow field. A doctorate shows you can perform novel research and add knowledge to a field. ...but perhaps that is not really applicable to all fields of study. In any case, "glorified dropout" is imho too harsh, as it implies a failure. For most people, the economic tradeoff in getting a masters degree or higher (both in terms of tuition and time lost not working) simply makes it a bad choice.
- jltsiren 4y ago
  I was describing the old system in Finland, which was similar to many countries in the Continental Europe. Master's degree was the primary undergraduate degree. Bachelor's degree existed on paper, but it wasn't recognized in the society. People often got their bachelor's and master's on the same day. At some point, politicians started promoting bachelor's degrees to get people graduate faster. The academia accepted that, but the job market didn't, at least not initially. Because people were not familiar with bachelor's degrees, they often didn't consider them serious degrees. Some people knew them but took them as a negative sign. The idea was that if a university degree is a sign that you can achieve something, leaving the university after bachelor's is sign that you failed at that. I left Finland a long time ago, and I'm not familiar with the job market relevance of a bachelor's degree today.
  - haihaibye 4y ago
    Instead of sweeping generalisations you should qualify statements if it only applies to long ago in a small non English speaking country. > I'm not familiar with the job market relevance of a bachelor's degree today. It's OK to say nothing if you have no information to add
    - jltsiren 4y ago
      My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degrees. A bachelor's degree from the UK is not at all like one from the US, and the differences between PhDs are even bigger. Many European countries consider master's the primary undergraduate degree. A master's may be a research degree, a taught academic degree with/without a thesis, or a professional degree. Law/medical degrees may be graduate or undergraduate degrees. A bachelor's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a master's degree, and a master's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a doctorate. There may be intermediate degrees between a bachelor's and a master's and between a master's and a doctorate. Not all research doctorates are PhDs. An MD is not necessarily a doctorate, and the doctorate in medicine could be an MD, a PhD, or something else. Having a PhD in medicine may imply that you are not an MD. Whatever your experiences from the academia may be, the academia is not universally like that.
      - haihaibye 4y ago
        > My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degree No. Read again what you wrote. It wasn't a qualified statement about different values in different places, ie "in this culture X is more like Y" it was a general claim with no background: "A bachelor's is a glorified dropout. A master's is the primary academic degree"
        jltsiren 4y ago
        Remember the last sentence: "Or they could mean something else, depending on which traditions you are used to."

rdtwo 4y ago

Harsh… I think a doctorate often means you are difficult, out of touch and got stuck in a bubble too long

zdragnar 4y ago

I've always understood it as: A bachelor's is an extension of high school. You show you can assimilate knowledge at a professional level. A masters shows you can do extensive research of existing knowledge in a narrow field. A doctorate shows you can perform novel research and add knowledge to a field. ...but perhaps that is not really applicable to all fields of study. In any case, "glorified dropout" is imho too harsh, as it implies a failure. For most people, the economic tradeoff in getting a masters degree or higher (both in terms of tuition and time lost not working) simply makes it a bad choice.

jltsiren 4y ago
I was describing the old system in Finland, which was similar to many countries in the Continental Europe. Master's degree was the primary undergraduate degree. Bachelor's degree existed on paper, but it wasn't recognized in the society. People often got their bachelor's and master's on the same day. At some point, politicians started promoting bachelor's degrees to get people graduate faster. The academia accepted that, but the job market didn't, at least not initially. Because people were not familiar with bachelor's degrees, they often didn't consider them serious degrees. Some people knew them but took them as a negative sign. The idea was that if a university degree is a sign that you can achieve something, leaving the university after bachelor's is sign that you failed at that. I left Finland a long time ago, and I'm not familiar with the job market relevance of a bachelor's degree today.
- haihaibye 4y ago
  Instead of sweeping generalisations you should qualify statements if it only applies to long ago in a small non English speaking country. > I'm not familiar with the job market relevance of a bachelor's degree today. It's OK to say nothing if you have no information to add
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degrees. A bachelor's degree from the UK is not at all like one from the US, and the differences between PhDs are even bigger. Many European countries consider master's the primary undergraduate degree. A master's may be a research degree, a taught academic degree with/without a thesis, or a professional degree. Law/medical degrees may be graduate or undergraduate degrees. A bachelor's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a master's degree, and a master's degree may or may not be a prerequisite for a doctorate. There may be intermediate degrees between a bachelor's and a master's and between a master's and a doctorate. Not all research doctorates are PhDs. An MD is not necessarily a doctorate, and the doctorate in medicine could be an MD, a PhD, or something else. Having a PhD in medicine may imply that you are not an MD. Whatever your experiences from the academia may be, the academia is not universally like that.
    - haihaibye 4y ago
      > My point was that people have different cultural backgrounds, and with that different expectations from academic degree No. Read again what you wrote. It wasn't a qualified statement about different values in different places, ie "in this culture X is more like Y" it was a general claim with no background: "A bachelor's is a glorified dropout. A master's is the primary academic degree"
      - jltsiren 4y ago
        Remember the last sentence: "Or they could mean something else, depending on which traditions you are used to."