4 ms·

> There was a post a while back around poor and homeless people encountering exactly this problem on a regular basis. Lots of people in the comments were incred

> There was a post a while back around poor and homeless people encountering exactly this problem on a regular basis. Lots of people in the comments were incredibly dismissive and sometimes actively malign about it. Even worse than that, they're often connecting from public IPs that are "suspicious" which causes automated systems to treat them more harshly. In Canada it's gotten to the point where you need an internet connected device to participate in the most important systems; government, banking, etc.. It's very sad that device can't be supplied by the libraries. They have them, but big tech discriminates against anything that's not a personal computing device.

phpisthebest 4y ago
In the US if you are under 135 percent of the Federal Poverty Level you qualify for a free Mobile Phone with internet service. I am surprised Canada does not have a program like that
- nszceta 4y ago
  That program is not available in every State iirc
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Its a federal program, its benefits are available in every state.
    - nszceta 4y ago
      Some cellular partners in some states don't support it even though its a federal program.
- doubled112 4y ago
  Wild guess: Bell, Rogers, and Telus probably wouldn't allow it because they couldn't milk Canadians for as much then
  - refurb 4y ago
    Why? In the US program the government pays for them. What kind of business would turn that down? Looks like the CRTC mandates cheap plans the mobile companies offer free phone and plans too. https://www.telus.com/en/about/news-and-events/media-releases/telus-delivering-over-10000-free-mobile-devices-to-help-canadians-stay-connected https://www.telus.com/en/about/news-and-events/media-release...
    - paledot 4y ago
      Which works about as well as the IRS Free File program in the US.
Jeremy1026 4y ago
My local library actually lends out hotspots, unlimited data, no charge. Its an amazing service that would be amazing to see spread around to all libraries.
- remram 4y ago
  The problem referenced above was that the poor people in question don't have devices, so they log in from public or loaner devices. Those are seen as "suspicious" by the algorithms, and without a personal device there is no way to convince said algorithms. Here is the submission: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320 (August 2022, the letter submitted is from 2021)
userbinator 4y ago
but big tech discriminates against anything that's not a personal computing device. To be precise, anything that's not a "personal" computing device running the latest spyware-filled locked-down software and a browser that can be anything as long as it's the three that Google implicitly "approve". government, banking, etc.. Banking is private-sector, but I believe the government should always be accessible even if you live like the Amish... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Canada ...and I wonder how they get along there since they're apparently present in Canada too.
- retrac 4y ago
  In Ontario, the traditional Amish largely opt out of social programs and public education that they're eligible for; they manage as they can within their communities privately, perhaps hiring outside services as necessary. Some make use of provincial health services; you can get the documentation and ID for that with some paperwork (which they probably have - income tax statements and birth certificates, etc.) in person at government offices. Otherwise the only mandatory interaction with the state is basically birth registrations and paying income taxes. Both of those can still be done with paper forms by mail or in-person, at least for now.
- gexla 4y ago
  The trouble with the idea of banks being accessible, is that you also need to deal with KYC checks. Not all financial things require them, but it's creeping. I wonder how many homeless people have no ID.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    Losing ID is really common on the street. Historically, you were known by people around you and you could be "verified by relative" in the case of a house fire destroying all your documents or something, but your life mostly worked in your home town and traveling or moving elsewhere was hard. Trying to cash a check anywhere but your home town was hard, etc. I'm a former military wife and this was a big enough issue for the American military that military facilities would cash your check at the BX/PX. Local banks and such often wanted nothing to do with military members. And now we have this highly digital, highly mobile society and if you are rich enough and such and keep all your ducks in a row all the time, you have tremendous freedom to roam the world, pay with plastic, etc. But for a lot of people, it's increasingly problematic that we default to state ID and digital formats and so forth. These systems should enhance older methods of making life work, not crowd them out and make life a living hell for anyone who can't keep up with it. And we should be optimizing for helping ordinary people make their lives work, not optimizing for trying to squelch bad actors and too bad, so sad if innocent bystanders get run over in the process. I don't know how to make my life work. It seems impossible at this point and it really shouldn't be. We have the means to make life for me actually work and no matter how much I do, it's never enough.
8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
i moved to the US.. im now locked out of BCs health thingy now because my bc services card expired. and also my android version is too new
- neltnerb 4y ago
  In Canada, on the way back to Massachusetts, I needed to download a repaired version of my COVID card. But the Massachusetts Government Website, that you need access to in order to do things that citizens of the state need to do regardless of their location, silently blocked Canadian IP addresses.
velox_neb 4y ago
> they're often connecting from public IPs that are "suspicious" which causes automated systems to treat them more harshly. What's worse is that the the error messages never explain the problem. It's just an endless sequence of "Oops! Something went wrong" "We could not fulfill your request" "Please try again later". Could drive someone crazy if they're not savvy enough to realize what's going on.
- TurkishPoptart 4y ago
  >What's worse is that the the error messages never explain the problem. It's just an endless sequence of "Oops! Something went wrong" "We could not fulfill your request" "Please try again later". You're absolutely right. They each carry the tone of "This content isn't available right now", like when trying to view a tweet from a shadowbanned user. I've seen that drive people, particularly family, into a kind of aggressive version of frustration.
  - nonrandomstring 4y ago
    > They each carry the tone of "This content isn't available right now" At this point it's merely static deception. Wait until they run a GPT bot programmed to interactively lie to you, deflect, stall, misdirect and stonewall you based on your personal profile. These companies are devious and untrustworthy to their core, and the only reason anyone uses them is because they're forced to.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      No need to wait: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/13/becoming-a-chatbot-my-life-as-a-real-estate-ais-human-backup https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/13/becoming-...
      - nonrandomstring 4y ago
        Quite staggering account of how technology has created the worst of all possible worlds for everyone. There are no winners here. People, we have failed. Give up and grow vegetables :)
stuaxo 4y ago
In the UK, less and less places accept cash. I experienced the only slightly inconvenient of this when I was replacing my bank card, even going into a Pret, I was unlucky enough to go into one randomly that didn't accept cash. But for people that don't have bank cards, or can't charge their phones this is a real problem.

phpisthebest 4y ago

In the US if you are under 135 percent of the Federal Poverty Level you qualify for a free Mobile Phone with internet service. I am surprised Canada does not have a program like that

nszceta 4y ago
That program is not available in every State iirc
- vel0city 4y ago
  Its a federal program, its benefits are available in every state.
  - nszceta 4y ago
    Some cellular partners in some states don't support it even though its a federal program.
doubled112 4y ago
Wild guess: Bell, Rogers, and Telus probably wouldn't allow it because they couldn't milk Canadians for as much then
- refurb 4y ago
  Why? In the US program the government pays for them. What kind of business would turn that down? Looks like the CRTC mandates cheap plans the mobile companies offer free phone and plans too. https://www.telus.com/en/about/news-and-events/media-releases/telus-delivering-over-10000-free-mobile-devices-to-help-canadians-stay-connected https://www.telus.com/en/about/news-and-events/media-release...
  - paledot 4y ago
    Which works about as well as the IRS Free File program in the US.

Jeremy1026 4y ago

My local library actually lends out hotspots, unlimited data, no charge. Its an amazing service that would be amazing to see spread around to all libraries.

remram 4y ago
The problem referenced above was that the poor people in question don't have devices, so they log in from public or loaner devices. Those are seen as "suspicious" by the algorithms, and without a personal device there is no way to convince said algorithms. Here is the submission: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320 (August 2022, the letter submitted is from 2021)

userbinator 4y ago

but big tech discriminates against anything that's not a personal computing device. To be precise, anything that's not a "personal" computing device running the latest spyware-filled locked-down software and a browser that can be anything as long as it's the three that Google implicitly "approve". government, banking, etc.. Banking is private-sector, but I believe the government should always be accessible even if you live like the Amish... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Canada ...and I wonder how they get along there since they're apparently present in Canada too.

retrac 4y ago
In Ontario, the traditional Amish largely opt out of social programs and public education that they're eligible for; they manage as they can within their communities privately, perhaps hiring outside services as necessary. Some make use of provincial health services; you can get the documentation and ID for that with some paperwork (which they probably have - income tax statements and birth certificates, etc.) in person at government offices. Otherwise the only mandatory interaction with the state is basically birth registrations and paying income taxes. Both of those can still be done with paper forms by mail or in-person, at least for now.
gexla 4y ago
The trouble with the idea of banks being accessible, is that you also need to deal with KYC checks. Not all financial things require them, but it's creeping. I wonder how many homeless people have no ID.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  Losing ID is really common on the street. Historically, you were known by people around you and you could be "verified by relative" in the case of a house fire destroying all your documents or something, but your life mostly worked in your home town and traveling or moving elsewhere was hard. Trying to cash a check anywhere but your home town was hard, etc. I'm a former military wife and this was a big enough issue for the American military that military facilities would cash your check at the BX/PX. Local banks and such often wanted nothing to do with military members. And now we have this highly digital, highly mobile society and if you are rich enough and such and keep all your ducks in a row all the time, you have tremendous freedom to roam the world, pay with plastic, etc. But for a lot of people, it's increasingly problematic that we default to state ID and digital formats and so forth. These systems should enhance older methods of making life work, not crowd them out and make life a living hell for anyone who can't keep up with it. And we should be optimizing for helping ordinary people make their lives work, not optimizing for trying to squelch bad actors and too bad, so sad if innocent bystanders get run over in the process. I don't know how to make my life work. It seems impossible at this point and it really shouldn't be. We have the means to make life for me actually work and no matter how much I do, it's never enough.

8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago

i moved to the US.. im now locked out of BCs health thingy now because my bc services card expired. and also my android version is too new

neltnerb 4y ago
In Canada, on the way back to Massachusetts, I needed to download a repaired version of my COVID card. But the Massachusetts Government Website, that you need access to in order to do things that citizens of the state need to do regardless of their location, silently blocked Canadian IP addresses.

velox_neb 4y ago

> they're often connecting from public IPs that are "suspicious" which causes automated systems to treat them more harshly. What's worse is that the the error messages never explain the problem. It's just an endless sequence of "Oops! Something went wrong" "We could not fulfill your request" "Please try again later". Could drive someone crazy if they're not savvy enough to realize what's going on.

TurkishPoptart 4y ago
>What's worse is that the the error messages never explain the problem. It's just an endless sequence of "Oops! Something went wrong" "We could not fulfill your request" "Please try again later". You're absolutely right. They each carry the tone of "This content isn't available right now", like when trying to view a tweet from a shadowbanned user. I've seen that drive people, particularly family, into a kind of aggressive version of frustration.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > They each carry the tone of "This content isn't available right now" At this point it's merely static deception. Wait until they run a GPT bot programmed to interactively lie to you, deflect, stall, misdirect and stonewall you based on your personal profile. These companies are devious and untrustworthy to their core, and the only reason anyone uses them is because they're forced to.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    No need to wait: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/13/becoming-a-chatbot-my-life-as-a-real-estate-ais-human-backup https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/13/becoming-...
    - nonrandomstring 4y ago
      Quite staggering account of how technology has created the worst of all possible worlds for everyone. There are no winners here. People, we have failed. Give up and grow vegetables :)

stuaxo 4y ago

In the UK, less and less places accept cash. I experienced the only slightly inconvenient of this when I was replacing my bank card, even going into a Pret, I was unlucky enough to go into one randomly that didn't accept cash. But for people that don't have bank cards, or can't charge their phones this is a real problem.