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This minimizes the main problem with really going full renewables, storage. Fusion is 24/7 output at the same level. Solar and wind are not, which means batteri

This minimizes the main problem with really going full renewables, storage. Fusion is 24/7 output at the same level. Solar and wind are not, which means batteries, and all the problems associated with that. Fusion could obviate the need for grid-wide storage systems which would be a huge advantage.

moloch-hai 4y ago
Not if fusion would cost orders of magnitude more than storage. "All the problems associated with" what? Modern batteries don't burst into flame. Anyway the overwhelming bulk of storage is not and will not be chemical batteries.
- voqv 4y ago
  > "All the problems associated with" what? Economic challenges of quickly building grid-scale battery storage , battery production for the entire globe, NIMBY's etc. > Modern batteries don't burst into flame they literally do > the overwhelming bulk of storage is not batteries Well overwhelming bulk is a high bar and storage is geography dependent. Germany f.e. can't build as much pumped storage as Australia and Australia built a large amount of battery storage vs PSH.
  - Brometheus 4y ago
    Germany can has and will very well be building hydrogen and compressed air storage.
    - voqv 4y ago
      Well they certainly say they will, not sure about the rest.
  - moloch-hai 4y ago
    Germany has an overabundance of hills. Most places do. But pumped storage is just one of many options Modern batteries do not burn. Teslas do.
    - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
      It's a problem with lithium batteries in general, not just Tesla. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/12/recycling-firm-fined-after-tossed-batteries-cause-garbage-truck-fires/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/12/recycling-firm-fined...
      - moloch-hai 4y ago
        Lithium-ion batteries burn. But the topic was "modern batteries", which at the instant moment means LiFeP batteries, not "previous-generation batteries". Lithium is anyway not favored for use in utility-scale storage, where its light weight offers no compelling value. Up-and-coming chemistries include iron-air (no explosions), calcium-antimony (no explosions), and bromine-zinc (no explosions). Hundreds of other chemistries are available.
    - voqv 4y ago
      > an overabundance of hills. That's not sufficient for pumped storage at scale, but Germany is mostly focusing on hydrogen for now.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
Making the box of salty radiation medicine an order of magnitude cheaper and shoving a bit of hydrogen in a salt cavern solves the storage problem (which is already far smaller than you're pretending) entirely. Fissions reactors that don't have incredibly strict and expensive regulation are already pretty unreliable, and they're operating within the bounds of known materials rather than an order of magnitude outside of them. Even the mythical 100% uptime nuclear reactor still needs just as much storage for abritrage because it is so much more expensive.
preisschild 4y ago
Unfortunately 100% renewable advocates just throw LCOE numbers around even though LCOE doesn't account for storage at all. Levelized Full System Costs of Electricity (LFSCOE) does include storage and suddenly nuclear fission gets a lot more competitive: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4028640 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4028640
- trashtester 4y ago
  Precisely this. Do they have similar numbers available for Korea?
  - preisschild 4y ago
    Couldn't find any yet, but I'm curious as well. APR-1400 business is booming.

moloch-hai 4y ago

Not if fusion would cost orders of magnitude more than storage. "All the problems associated with" what? Modern batteries don't burst into flame. Anyway the overwhelming bulk of storage is not and will not be chemical batteries.

voqv 4y ago
> "All the problems associated with" what? Economic challenges of quickly building grid-scale battery storage , battery production for the entire globe, NIMBY's etc. > Modern batteries don't burst into flame they literally do > the overwhelming bulk of storage is not batteries Well overwhelming bulk is a high bar and storage is geography dependent. Germany f.e. can't build as much pumped storage as Australia and Australia built a large amount of battery storage vs PSH.
- Brometheus 4y ago
  Germany can has and will very well be building hydrogen and compressed air storage.
  - voqv 4y ago
    Well they certainly say they will, not sure about the rest.
- moloch-hai 4y ago
  Germany has an overabundance of hills. Most places do. But pumped storage is just one of many options Modern batteries do not burn. Teslas do.
  - MaxBarraclough 4y ago
    It's a problem with lithium batteries in general, not just Tesla. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/12/recycling-firm-fined-after-tossed-batteries-cause-garbage-truck-fires/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/12/recycling-firm-fined...
    - moloch-hai 4y ago
      Lithium-ion batteries burn. But the topic was "modern batteries", which at the instant moment means LiFeP batteries, not "previous-generation batteries". Lithium is anyway not favored for use in utility-scale storage, where its light weight offers no compelling value. Up-and-coming chemistries include iron-air (no explosions), calcium-antimony (no explosions), and bromine-zinc (no explosions). Hundreds of other chemistries are available.
  - voqv 4y ago
    > an overabundance of hills. That's not sufficient for pumped storage at scale, but Germany is mostly focusing on hydrogen for now.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

Making the box of salty radiation medicine an order of magnitude cheaper and shoving a bit of hydrogen in a salt cavern solves the storage problem (which is already far smaller than you're pretending) entirely. Fissions reactors that don't have incredibly strict and expensive regulation are already pretty unreliable, and they're operating within the bounds of known materials rather than an order of magnitude outside of them. Even the mythical 100% uptime nuclear reactor still needs just as much storage for abritrage because it is so much more expensive.

preisschild 4y ago

Unfortunately 100% renewable advocates just throw LCOE numbers around even though LCOE doesn't account for storage at all. Levelized Full System Costs of Electricity (LFSCOE) does include storage and suddenly nuclear fission gets a lot more competitive: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4028640 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4028640

trashtester 4y ago
Precisely this. Do they have similar numbers available for Korea?
- preisschild 4y ago
  Couldn't find any yet, but I'm curious as well. APR-1400 business is booming.