4 ms·

Most mechanical and electrical engineers don't work on projects that would lead to any deaths if they screw up. Many construction workers and electricians do.

Most mechanical and electrical engineers don't work on projects that would lead to any deaths if they screw up. Many construction workers and electricians do. I don't know if that's a good proxy for engineering.

PostOnce 4y ago
There's (I think) a difference between an "engineer" (someone with a degree in their field, say) and a Professional Engineer (aka a Chartered Engineer), someone who is responsible for serious fuckups.
glitchc 4y ago
They are not engineers and need to stop using that term. A PE is absolutely culpable if their design or the project they are managing leads to injury and loss of life.
- toast0 4y ago
  A PE doesn't operate a train, so why is it ok for them to coopt a term, and not others?
  - projektfu 4y ago
    Engines were likely made by engineers before engineers started operating them.
  - glitchc 4y ago
    A professional engineer is a protected term. Stop calling yourself that if you aren't qualified as one. You are breaking the law.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      This is untrue in the us. You need to be a certified PE to sign certain documents and if you misrepresent yourself in that situation, you might be criminally liable, and certainly financially so, but no anyone can call themselves a PE or an engineer thanks to the first amendment (for recent relevant caselaw: https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...).
      - glitchc 4y ago
        You are incorrect. The judge's ruling is exceedingly narrow and does not qualify Mats to call himself an engineer in any area other than publicly commenting on traffic light timing. Mats cannot call himself an engineer for the purposes of any other subject, including electrical enginnering, for which he is trained, until he acquires the PE designation. https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-news/federal-court-ruling-preserves-professional-engineer https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-ne...
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        This is incorrect. He cannot call himself a PE for the purposes of acquiring clients (that's fraud), but he's perfectly free to call himself an engineer otherwise, per the actual ruling and not a press release by a biased party. You are correct that the ruling partially constrains itself to traffic lights, but that is because that's all Jarlstrom asked for, and this was a preliminary injunction, it didn't even go to trial! That said, the ruling also makes clear that the Oregon engineering title laws (as opposed to engineering practice laws) "violate the first amendment on their face". And if those statutes are unconstitutional, there's no law for Jarlstrom to violate. And as such, it states " Plaintiff Järlström may describe himself publicly and privately using the word “engineer." And that Oregon cannot enforce any of the professional engineering registration act against him for doing so. And Oregon is one of only a few states with such a law, so in most of the US there isn't even a law to strike down, it's just clearly legal.
    - toast0 4y ago
      Sure 'professional engineer' and 'licensed engineer' are protected. Just 'engineer' isn't in the US, unless you're in Texas. Even still, I thought Texas lets people be business card engineers.
torginus 4y ago
I feel like this is a bit of a dramatization - but most 'real' engineers work on on physical products with lead times and manufacturing costs. You could design, manufacture, and ship thousands of gadgets which turn out to be scarp, because someone forgot to place a pull-up resistor for the reset pin leaving the devices unable to boot up (definitely not a real example :) ) You can make costly mistakes with software too, but in old engineering it's the norm not the exception.

PostOnce 4y ago

There's (I think) a difference between an "engineer" (someone with a degree in their field, say) and a Professional Engineer (aka a Chartered Engineer), someone who is responsible for serious fuckups.

glitchc 4y ago

They are not engineers and need to stop using that term. A PE is absolutely culpable if their design or the project they are managing leads to injury and loss of life.

toast0 4y ago
A PE doesn't operate a train, so why is it ok for them to coopt a term, and not others?
- projektfu 4y ago
  Engines were likely made by engineers before engineers started operating them.
- glitchc 4y ago
  A professional engineer is a protected term. Stop calling yourself that if you aren't qualified as one. You are breaking the law.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    This is untrue in the us. You need to be a certified PE to sign certain documents and if you misrepresent yourself in that situation, you might be criminally liable, and certainly financially so, but no anyone can call themselves a PE or an engineer thanks to the first amendment (for recent relevant caselaw: https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...).
    - glitchc 4y ago
      You are incorrect. The judge's ruling is exceedingly narrow and does not qualify Mats to call himself an engineer in any area other than publicly commenting on traffic light timing. Mats cannot call himself an engineer for the purposes of any other subject, including electrical enginnering, for which he is trained, until he acquires the PE designation. https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-news/federal-court-ruling-preserves-professional-engineer https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-ne...
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        This is incorrect. He cannot call himself a PE for the purposes of acquiring clients (that's fraud), but he's perfectly free to call himself an engineer otherwise, per the actual ruling and not a press release by a biased party. You are correct that the ruling partially constrains itself to traffic lights, but that is because that's all Jarlstrom asked for, and this was a preliminary injunction, it didn't even go to trial! That said, the ruling also makes clear that the Oregon engineering title laws (as opposed to engineering practice laws) "violate the first amendment on their face". And if those statutes are unconstitutional, there's no law for Jarlstrom to violate. And as such, it states " Plaintiff Järlström may describe himself publicly and privately using the word “engineer." And that Oregon cannot enforce any of the professional engineering registration act against him for doing so. And Oregon is one of only a few states with such a law, so in most of the US there isn't even a law to strike down, it's just clearly legal.
  - toast0 4y ago
    Sure 'professional engineer' and 'licensed engineer' are protected. Just 'engineer' isn't in the US, unless you're in Texas. Even still, I thought Texas lets people be business card engineers.

torginus 4y ago

I feel like this is a bit of a dramatization - but most 'real' engineers work on on physical products with lead times and manufacturing costs. You could design, manufacture, and ship thousands of gadgets which turn out to be scarp, because someone forgot to place a pull-up resistor for the reset pin leaving the devices unable to boot up (definitely not a real example :) ) You can make costly mistakes with software too, but in old engineering it's the norm not the exception.