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When I encounter the term "engineer", I take it to mean someone who, if they screw up, people die. I know a "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer" is a thing t

by RunSet 4y ago

When I encounter the term "engineer", I take it to mean someone who, if they screw up, people die. I know a "Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer" is a thing that exists, but it seems to me rather a contradiction in terms, suggestive as it is of an engineer who is expected or even required to make mistakes. https://i.imgur.com/CNr1vdD.png https://i.imgur.com/CNr1vdD.png

JamesBarney 4y ago
Most mechanical and electrical engineers don't work on projects that would lead to any deaths if they screw up. Many construction workers and electricians do. I don't know if that's a good proxy for engineering.
- PostOnce 4y ago
  There's (I think) a difference between an "engineer" (someone with a degree in their field, say) and a Professional Engineer (aka a Chartered Engineer), someone who is responsible for serious fuckups.
- glitchc 4y ago
  They are not engineers and need to stop using that term. A PE is absolutely culpable if their design or the project they are managing leads to injury and loss of life.
  - toast0 4y ago
    A PE doesn't operate a train, so why is it ok for them to coopt a term, and not others?
    - projektfu 4y ago
      Engines were likely made by engineers before engineers started operating them.
    - glitchc 4y ago
      A professional engineer is a protected term. Stop calling yourself that if you aren't qualified as one. You are breaking the law.
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        This is untrue in the us. You need to be a certified PE to sign certain documents and if you misrepresent yourself in that situation, you might be criminally liable, and certainly financially so, but no anyone can call themselves a PE or an engineer thanks to the first amendment (for recent relevant caselaw: https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...).
        glitchc 4y ago
        You are incorrect. The judge's ruling is exceedingly narrow and does not qualify Mats to call himself an engineer in any area other than publicly commenting on traffic light timing. Mats cannot call himself an engineer for the purposes of any other subject, including electrical enginnering, for which he is trained, until he acquires the PE designation. https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-news/federal-court-ruling-preserves-professional-engineer https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-ne...
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        This is incorrect. He cannot call himself a PE for the purposes of acquiring clients (that's fraud), but he's perfectly free to call himself an engineer otherwise, per the actual ruling and not a press release by a biased party. You are correct that the ruling partially constrains itself to traffic lights, but that is because that's all Jarlstrom asked for, and this was a preliminary injunction, it didn't even go to trial! That said, the ruling also makes clear that the Oregon engineering title laws (as opposed to engineering practice laws) "violate the first amendment on their face". And if those statutes are unconstitutional, there's no law for Jarlstrom to violate. And as such, it states " Plaintiff Järlström may describe himself publicly and privately using the word “engineer." And that Oregon cannot enforce any of the professional engineering registration act against him for doing so. And Oregon is one of only a few states with such a law, so in most of the US there isn't even a law to strike down, it's just clearly legal.
- torginus 4y ago
  I feel like this is a bit of a dramatization - but most 'real' engineers work on on physical products with lead times and manufacturing costs. You could design, manufacture, and ship thousands of gadgets which turn out to be scarp, because someone forgot to place a pull-up resistor for the reset pin leaving the devices unable to boot up (definitely not a real example :) ) You can make costly mistakes with software too, but in old engineering it's the norm not the exception.
sdflhasjd 4y ago
I'm not sure I quite so literally agree with your wording, but I do share the sentiment. I'm not fond of calling myself an engineer as I find it rather big-headed. Most of us are just programmers, very little - if any - engineering gets done, and there's no standard certification either. Or maybe I have a rosy view of what "actual" engineers do.
- paulryanrogers 4y ago
  The word engineer has come a long way since siege machines. It's OK if it evolves further.
ghshephard 4y ago
That was a kind of circa 1980s/mindset 1990s thing. Mostly ceased being the case in much the same way that "Crypto" no longer refers exclusively to cryptography, and often to cryptographic currency. Sofware Engineers (and their recent extensions, Sight Reliability Engineers, Data Engineers), etc... have been a pretty common concept for 20+ years.
- antod 4y ago
  > Sight Reliability Engineers Is that title inflation for optometrist?
- brailsafe 4y ago
  Depends on where you are. As far as I know, the term engineer is not regulated like it is in other countries, except maybe at the border. It's also basically a joke title anyway, but it's nice to at least have it in my work history. I write JavaScript, hoorah I'm an engineer. Socially I find it a bit embarrassing, so I say I'm a programmer or a software developer.
gtk40 4y ago
I don't love having an Engineer title but it's the reality of the workplace in the US at least. Software Engineer and related are very, very common. Now even some colleges and universities have degrees in Software Engineering.
- deathanatos 4y ago
  "Software Engineer" is pretty much a literal description of the job. What these threads always miss is the definition of the word engineering[1]: > The application of mathematics and the physical sciences to the needs of humanity and the development of technology The Wikipedia article for Engineer[2] further drives it home: > The work of engineers forms the link between scientific discoveries and their subsequent applications to human and business needs and quality of life. And that's what I do: I take the field I studied (Computer Science) and I apply the knowledge and discoveries of that field¹ towards the needs of humanity, i.e., I engineer. (Typically, and it is somewhat expected, I engineer software. Not always, ofc.) People get hung up on that "PE" is a specific term of art in some jurisdictions and some fields, with a correspondingly more narrow definition. [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineering https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineering [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer ¹or, well, some of us do. The profession these days seems to have a real problem with knowledge.
wendyshu 4y ago
The usage may have changed over time which can definitely be irritating but I think "engineer" is a useful word to mean roughly someone who applies some sort of theoretical knowledge to solve practical problems. E.g. financial engineering. If you have a better word for this let me know. I wouldn't mind the term "computer programmer" but no one uses that as a title. "Developer" just sounds dumb.
- RunSet 4y ago
  The job titles seem to say more about the people hiring than about the jobs themselves. I have often thought that making software has at least as much in common with cooking or sewing as it does with engineering or architecture, as in "software architect" or "software engineer"- yet there are no software chefs or software tailors. Perhaps executives are uncomfortable knowing less about a fundamental aspect of their business than a chef or a tailor but if an engineer or architect knows something they don't, well, those are demanding disciplines that the executive can be forgiven not having mastered. Likewise there are no attire engineers or food architects because we might be more reluctant to have our waistline measured by an engineer or to tell an architect in fine detail how our meal should be prepared. It also occurs to me that both architecture and engineering are traditionally male-dominated fields. On the other hand, "computing" was originally considered woman's work[0]. Whatever title I propose is ultimately moot if the people hiring would rather call their employees software architect, software engineer, software lumberjack, etc. However, since you asked me, I think "codewright" has a ring to it.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)#Wartime_computing_and_electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)#Wartime_... [1] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Wright https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Wright
  - IncRnd 4y ago
    > yet there are no software chefs or software tailors. Actually.... Chef is a configuration management tool that uses system configuration "recipes". [1] [2] There are tailored systems in software. We call those bespoke systems. [3] Bespoke software – sometimes called custom software or tailored software – is a software solution created for a specific user. Much like a bespoke suit, these software solutions are made and tailored entirely to your exact specifications. > However, since you asked me, I think "codewright" has a ring to it. CodeWright is a Windows Programmers Editing System for software developers originally marketed by Premia Corp. [4] Though, enough time has passed that you should be able to safely reuse that title! [1] https://www.chef.io/ https://www.chef.io/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Chef https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Chef [3] https://itenterprise.co.uk/bespoke-software-go-bespoke https://itenterprise.co.uk/bespoke-software-go-bespoke [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CodeWright https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CodeWright
emodendroket 4y ago
I also insist on pretending nobody has ever started using an existing term to mean something new since I was in middle school.

by RunSet 4y ago

JamesBarney 4y ago

Most mechanical and electrical engineers don't work on projects that would lead to any deaths if they screw up. Many construction workers and electricians do. I don't know if that's a good proxy for engineering.

PostOnce 4y ago
There's (I think) a difference between an "engineer" (someone with a degree in their field, say) and a Professional Engineer (aka a Chartered Engineer), someone who is responsible for serious fuckups.
glitchc 4y ago
They are not engineers and need to stop using that term. A PE is absolutely culpable if their design or the project they are managing leads to injury and loss of life.
- toast0 4y ago
  A PE doesn't operate a train, so why is it ok for them to coopt a term, and not others?
  - projektfu 4y ago
    Engines were likely made by engineers before engineers started operating them.
  - glitchc 4y ago
    A professional engineer is a protected term. Stop calling yourself that if you aren't qualified as one. You are breaking the law.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      This is untrue in the us. You need to be a certified PE to sign certain documents and if you misrepresent yourself in that situation, you might be criminally liable, and certainly financially so, but no anyone can call themselves a PE or an engineer thanks to the first amendment (for recent relevant caselaw: https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...).
      - glitchc 4y ago
        You are incorrect. The judge's ruling is exceedingly narrow and does not qualify Mats to call himself an engineer in any area other than publicly commenting on traffic light timing. Mats cannot call himself an engineer for the purposes of any other subject, including electrical enginnering, for which he is trained, until he acquires the PE designation. https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-news/federal-court-ruling-preserves-professional-engineer https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-ne...
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        This is incorrect. He cannot call himself a PE for the purposes of acquiring clients (that's fraud), but he's perfectly free to call himself an engineer otherwise, per the actual ruling and not a press release by a biased party. You are correct that the ruling partially constrains itself to traffic lights, but that is because that's all Jarlstrom asked for, and this was a preliminary injunction, it didn't even go to trial! That said, the ruling also makes clear that the Oregon engineering title laws (as opposed to engineering practice laws) "violate the first amendment on their face". And if those statutes are unconstitutional, there's no law for Jarlstrom to violate. And as such, it states " Plaintiff Järlström may describe himself publicly and privately using the word “engineer." And that Oregon cannot enforce any of the professional engineering registration act against him for doing so. And Oregon is one of only a few states with such a law, so in most of the US there isn't even a law to strike down, it's just clearly legal.
torginus 4y ago
I feel like this is a bit of a dramatization - but most 'real' engineers work on on physical products with lead times and manufacturing costs. You could design, manufacture, and ship thousands of gadgets which turn out to be scarp, because someone forgot to place a pull-up resistor for the reset pin leaving the devices unable to boot up (definitely not a real example :) ) You can make costly mistakes with software too, but in old engineering it's the norm not the exception.

sdflhasjd 4y ago

I'm not sure I quite so literally agree with your wording, but I do share the sentiment. I'm not fond of calling myself an engineer as I find it rather big-headed. Most of us are just programmers, very little - if any - engineering gets done, and there's no standard certification either. Or maybe I have a rosy view of what "actual" engineers do.

paulryanrogers 4y ago
The word engineer has come a long way since siege machines. It's OK if it evolves further.

ghshephard 4y ago

That was a kind of circa 1980s/mindset 1990s thing. Mostly ceased being the case in much the same way that "Crypto" no longer refers exclusively to cryptography, and often to cryptographic currency. Sofware Engineers (and their recent extensions, Sight Reliability Engineers, Data Engineers), etc... have been a pretty common concept for 20+ years.

antod 4y ago
> Sight Reliability Engineers Is that title inflation for optometrist?
brailsafe 4y ago
Depends on where you are. As far as I know, the term engineer is not regulated like it is in other countries, except maybe at the border. It's also basically a joke title anyway, but it's nice to at least have it in my work history. I write JavaScript, hoorah I'm an engineer. Socially I find it a bit embarrassing, so I say I'm a programmer or a software developer.

gtk40 4y ago

I don't love having an Engineer title but it's the reality of the workplace in the US at least. Software Engineer and related are very, very common. Now even some colleges and universities have degrees in Software Engineering.

deathanatos 4y ago
"Software Engineer" is pretty much a literal description of the job. What these threads always miss is the definition of the word engineering[1]: > The application of mathematics and the physical sciences to the needs of humanity and the development of technology The Wikipedia article for Engineer[2] further drives it home: > The work of engineers forms the link between scientific discoveries and their subsequent applications to human and business needs and quality of life. And that's what I do: I take the field I studied (Computer Science) and I apply the knowledge and discoveries of that field¹ towards the needs of humanity, i.e., I engineer. (Typically, and it is somewhat expected, I engineer software. Not always, ofc.) People get hung up on that "PE" is a specific term of art in some jurisdictions and some fields, with a correspondingly more narrow definition. [1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineering https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineering [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer ¹or, well, some of us do. The profession these days seems to have a real problem with knowledge.

wendyshu 4y ago

The usage may have changed over time which can definitely be irritating but I think "engineer" is a useful word to mean roughly someone who applies some sort of theoretical knowledge to solve practical problems. E.g. financial engineering. If you have a better word for this let me know. I wouldn't mind the term "computer programmer" but no one uses that as a title. "Developer" just sounds dumb.

RunSet 4y ago
The job titles seem to say more about the people hiring than about the jobs themselves. I have often thought that making software has at least as much in common with cooking or sewing as it does with engineering or architecture, as in "software architect" or "software engineer"- yet there are no software chefs or software tailors. Perhaps executives are uncomfortable knowing less about a fundamental aspect of their business than a chef or a tailor but if an engineer or architect knows something they don't, well, those are demanding disciplines that the executive can be forgiven not having mastered. Likewise there are no attire engineers or food architects because we might be more reluctant to have our waistline measured by an engineer or to tell an architect in fine detail how our meal should be prepared. It also occurs to me that both architecture and engineering are traditionally male-dominated fields. On the other hand, "computing" was originally considered woman's work[0]. Whatever title I propose is ultimately moot if the people hiring would rather call their employees software architect, software engineer, software lumberjack, etc. However, since you asked me, I think "codewright" has a ring to it.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)#Wartime_computing_and_electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)#Wartime_... [1] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Wright https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Wright
- IncRnd 4y ago
  > yet there are no software chefs or software tailors. Actually.... Chef is a configuration management tool that uses system configuration "recipes". [1] [2] There are tailored systems in software. We call those bespoke systems. [3] Bespoke software – sometimes called custom software or tailored software – is a software solution created for a specific user. Much like a bespoke suit, these software solutions are made and tailored entirely to your exact specifications. > However, since you asked me, I think "codewright" has a ring to it. CodeWright is a Windows Programmers Editing System for software developers originally marketed by Premia Corp. [4] Though, enough time has passed that you should be able to safely reuse that title! [1] https://www.chef.io/ https://www.chef.io/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Chef https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Chef [3] https://itenterprise.co.uk/bespoke-software-go-bespoke https://itenterprise.co.uk/bespoke-software-go-bespoke [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CodeWright https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CodeWright

emodendroket 4y ago

I also insist on pretending nobody has ever started using an existing term to mean something new since I was in middle school.