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This article is basically just one giant pharmaceutical advertisement. Consider this excerpt: “I had a tough time grappling with the sorts of executive functio

This article is basically just one giant pharmaceutical advertisement. Consider this excerpt: “I had a tough time grappling with the sorts of executive functioning that our world operates by, like being able to set up meetings, follow through with things, focus and be detail oriented,” he says. His manager had pointed out these failings for months, which is why his termination was hardly shocking. Folks, learn how to use the tools that are available to you in order to schedule your workday. And if you are a manager then you have an obligation to train your staff in the use of tracking tools, which can be something as simple as post-it notes.

wins32767 4y ago
How effective would you be if someone stood behind you all day and interrupted you every minute or so on tasks that you found uninteresting? Would you perform at the same level as you would if someone wasn't interrupting you all the time? Would tools eliminate this problem or just mitigate it?
- itronitron 4y ago
  You are describing a workplace that isn't suited for the type of work that needs to be performed. That is a management failure not a medical diagnosis.
  - wins32767 4y ago
    ADD is like having that person interrupting you regularly. Saying "just use tools" isn't sufficient for everyone to get appropriate performance. Sometimes medication is the appropriate answer to banish the interruptions.
  - acuozzo 4y ago
    OP is not being literal. They're more-or-less stating that any "tools" would need to be set to such an extreme level of annoyance to have impact in the average case that they would undermine flow/"deep work".
  - dmurdoch 4y ago
    The fact that you didn't see what he was ACTUALLY referring to is actually funny in that it means you don't really understand what having an ADHD brain is actually like. He isn't saying this is literally the situation. He's referencing the fact that this is what its like having an ADHD brain. Your BRAIN is the one constantly interrupting you, all the time, bringing you focus away from what it SHOULD be focusing on and onto other random things, making doing consistent DEEP and thoughtful work really hard. The "workplace that isn't suited for the type of work" you refer to is just saying that my brain isn't suited to the type of work. Which like, yeah... I agree. Thats why I take medication.
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    he's not describing a workplace, he's describing a mind. it's an endless onslaught of mental distractions that break concentration. it happens even in a silent room. it's not a question of drugs or tools. you use the drugs to make the tools work. before I was medicated I couldn't make the tools work. I would write things in calendars then never look at the calendar, write down todo lists then forget about the list, etc. now that doesn't happen so much (still does a little bit). somewhere in my HN comment history there's a thread where I get into a confused discussion about todo lists, I'm talking with this guy and there's mutual incomprehension about how todo lists work. the other guy was saying, obviously every adult uses a todo list to get things done, and I was like, what are you talking about. to me a todo list always meant: a graveyard for unfinished ideas, where you write things down that you're never going to do, and feel disappointed about when you find it again under a pile of clutter months later. it never occurred to me that normal people could literally just write down a bunch of tasks for the day or week and then do them one by one. turns out there was something wrong with me, and medication can fix it.
kurikuri 4y ago
> Folks, learn how to use the tools that are available to you in order to schedule your workday. And if you are a manager then you have an obligation to train your staff in the use of tracking tools, which can be something as simple as post-it notes. Learning tools doesn't solve the problem, a person with ADHD can know about the tools and the thought simply won't enter their mind to keep up with the tool itself [1]. Many ADHD medications can be relatively cheaply had (generics are available for Adderall, Straterra, Ritalin, etc.), but the stigma associated with those medications are still quite high. [1]: https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0?t=71 https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0?t=71
prometheus76 4y ago
Knowing something or knowing how to use something is not the same as using it. This is a classic struggle between those without ADHD and those with it. People without ADHD think it's just a training issue. It's really not. This is an especially difficult dynamic between non-adhd parents and adhd kids. Ask me how I know. In other words, I know how to use Outlook, and it can help. I know how to use Post-it notes. And it helps a little, but if I don't have a chance to write out a post-it note and put it in a prominent place (with the other 250 prominent post-it notes in a prominent place) it's going to get lost and/or I'm going to forget. This isn't just a "you're just not organized" problem. One of the bigger challenges is categorizing things. As you can see just in this post, my brain started sprawling out to all the issues that confront someone with ADHD and the scope started to spread and I started talking about other things besides your post-it notes idea. This isn't a training issue. Largely, the issue is with impulse control and a dysfunctional intrinsic rewards system. Here's a video with some actual useful advice for ADHD people and their managers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpB-B8BXk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpB-B8BXk0
tpmoney 4y ago
When I was in school, I would get in trouble for forgetting to turn in homework. Why didn't I turn it in? Because I would forget I had homework and that it was in my bag. Sometimes I would get in trouble for not doing homework. Why didn't I do it? Because I forgot it was due that day, or I forgot I had it at all. So I was given a book to write down all of my assignments, and when they were due, and check them off when I was done with them, and to review every day so I knew what I should turn in. I continued to forget to turn in assignments. Why did I forget them? Because I forgot to check my book to see if I had any assignments to turn in, in addition to forgetting I had it and it was in my bag. I continued to get in trouble for forgetting to do assignments. Why did I forget them? Because I would forget to write them in my book, or I would forget to write down when they were due, or I'd forget to even check the book in the first place, or I would forget the book at home, or in the last class. Or I would forget my pen and not have anything to write in the book with and then forget what I was looking for a pen for by the time I got a new one. Don't get me wrong. I still use books, post it notes and organizational tools to help me in my profession. Bug trackers are a god send for me. But so is the fact that Slack archives every discussion I have, and gmail never forgets anything no matter how much you wish it would. And that's important because I still often forget to write something in a todo list, or the bug tracker. I've trained myself to check 5-10 different sources of "tasks" before I consider something done because I don't remember where I put everything, and I never remember to put everything in one place. Even with all of that, there are still things I'll forget from time to time. Do you remember old clip art CDs and galleries? They all used to have a clip art of a finger with a string tied around it. That's clip art for a "reminder". I never understood how that was supposed to work, because if I ever tied a string around my finger to remind me about something, I'd be lucky if I remembered the string was there at all, let alone what it was supposed to remind me about. Tools are often just one more thing to try and remember.

wins32767 4y ago

How effective would you be if someone stood behind you all day and interrupted you every minute or so on tasks that you found uninteresting? Would you perform at the same level as you would if someone wasn't interrupting you all the time? Would tools eliminate this problem or just mitigate it?

itronitron 4y ago
You are describing a workplace that isn't suited for the type of work that needs to be performed. That is a management failure not a medical diagnosis.
- wins32767 4y ago
  ADD is like having that person interrupting you regularly. Saying "just use tools" isn't sufficient for everyone to get appropriate performance. Sometimes medication is the appropriate answer to banish the interruptions.
- acuozzo 4y ago
  OP is not being literal. They're more-or-less stating that any "tools" would need to be set to such an extreme level of annoyance to have impact in the average case that they would undermine flow/"deep work".
- dmurdoch 4y ago
  The fact that you didn't see what he was ACTUALLY referring to is actually funny in that it means you don't really understand what having an ADHD brain is actually like. He isn't saying this is literally the situation. He's referencing the fact that this is what its like having an ADHD brain. Your BRAIN is the one constantly interrupting you, all the time, bringing you focus away from what it SHOULD be focusing on and onto other random things, making doing consistent DEEP and thoughtful work really hard. The "workplace that isn't suited for the type of work" you refer to is just saying that my brain isn't suited to the type of work. Which like, yeah... I agree. Thats why I take medication.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  he's not describing a workplace, he's describing a mind. it's an endless onslaught of mental distractions that break concentration. it happens even in a silent room. it's not a question of drugs or tools. you use the drugs to make the tools work. before I was medicated I couldn't make the tools work. I would write things in calendars then never look at the calendar, write down todo lists then forget about the list, etc. now that doesn't happen so much (still does a little bit). somewhere in my HN comment history there's a thread where I get into a confused discussion about todo lists, I'm talking with this guy and there's mutual incomprehension about how todo lists work. the other guy was saying, obviously every adult uses a todo list to get things done, and I was like, what are you talking about. to me a todo list always meant: a graveyard for unfinished ideas, where you write things down that you're never going to do, and feel disappointed about when you find it again under a pile of clutter months later. it never occurred to me that normal people could literally just write down a bunch of tasks for the day or week and then do them one by one. turns out there was something wrong with me, and medication can fix it.

kurikuri 4y ago

> Folks, learn how to use the tools that are available to you in order to schedule your workday. And if you are a manager then you have an obligation to train your staff in the use of tracking tools, which can be something as simple as post-it notes. Learning tools doesn't solve the problem, a person with ADHD can know about the tools and the thought simply won't enter their mind to keep up with the tool itself [1]. Many ADHD medications can be relatively cheaply had (generics are available for Adderall, Straterra, Ritalin, etc.), but the stigma associated with those medications are still quite high. [1]: https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0?t=71 https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0?t=71

prometheus76 4y ago

Knowing something or knowing how to use something is not the same as using it. This is a classic struggle between those without ADHD and those with it. People without ADHD think it's just a training issue. It's really not. This is an especially difficult dynamic between non-adhd parents and adhd kids. Ask me how I know. In other words, I know how to use Outlook, and it can help. I know how to use Post-it notes. And it helps a little, but if I don't have a chance to write out a post-it note and put it in a prominent place (with the other 250 prominent post-it notes in a prominent place) it's going to get lost and/or I'm going to forget. This isn't just a "you're just not organized" problem. One of the bigger challenges is categorizing things. As you can see just in this post, my brain started sprawling out to all the issues that confront someone with ADHD and the scope started to spread and I started talking about other things besides your post-it notes idea. This isn't a training issue. Largely, the issue is with impulse control and a dysfunctional intrinsic rewards system. Here's a video with some actual useful advice for ADHD people and their managers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpB-B8BXk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tpB-B8BXk0

tpmoney 4y ago

When I was in school, I would get in trouble for forgetting to turn in homework. Why didn't I turn it in? Because I would forget I had homework and that it was in my bag. Sometimes I would get in trouble for not doing homework. Why didn't I do it? Because I forgot it was due that day, or I forgot I had it at all. So I was given a book to write down all of my assignments, and when they were due, and check them off when I was done with them, and to review every day so I knew what I should turn in. I continued to forget to turn in assignments. Why did I forget them? Because I forgot to check my book to see if I had any assignments to turn in, in addition to forgetting I had it and it was in my bag. I continued to get in trouble for forgetting to do assignments. Why did I forget them? Because I would forget to write them in my book, or I would forget to write down when they were due, or I'd forget to even check the book in the first place, or I would forget the book at home, or in the last class. Or I would forget my pen and not have anything to write in the book with and then forget what I was looking for a pen for by the time I got a new one. Don't get me wrong. I still use books, post it notes and organizational tools to help me in my profession. Bug trackers are a god send for me. But so is the fact that Slack archives every discussion I have, and gmail never forgets anything no matter how much you wish it would. And that's important because I still often forget to write something in a todo list, or the bug tracker. I've trained myself to check 5-10 different sources of "tasks" before I consider something done because I don't remember where I put everything, and I never remember to put everything in one place. Even with all of that, there are still things I'll forget from time to time. Do you remember old clip art CDs and galleries? They all used to have a clip art of a finger with a string tied around it. That's clip art for a "reminder". I never understood how that was supposed to work, because if I ever tied a string around my finger to remind me about something, I'd be lucky if I remembered the string was there at all, let alone what it was supposed to remind me about. Tools are often just one more thing to try and remember.