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I play SC2 and watch from time to time. I don't see how you can claim there are longer term strategies at work when the average game lasts about 6 minutes, and

by Kranar 4y ago

I play SC2 and watch from time to time. I don't see how you can claim there are longer term strategies at work when the average game lasts about 6 minutes, and the first minute or two of the game are basically "filler". I think one reason SC2 is kind of boring to watch is because you get maybe 1-2 minutes of actually interesting game play, and the rest of the 4-5 minutes is just repetitive.

SgtBastard 4y ago
Each race has 8-10 viable “standard” openings and 2-3 “cheese” openings… sure, if you just watch one player who leans heavily on “skytoss” or “1-1-1 Terran” it gets repetitive, but also watching how each player responds to the increasing info about their opponents build from scouting is also interesting.
- Kranar 4y ago
  You make it seem like 8-10 openings is diverse. 8-10 openings gets very stale and repetitive for a game that only lasts about 6-8 minutes with only 1-2 minutes of actual engagement (and 4-6 minutes of setup).
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    I'd struggle to imagine an average game being resolved in 6-8 minutes.
    - Kranar 4y ago
      Are you being serious? What is your experience or background with SC2? Do you watch it or play it? At any rate, the average game duration for GSL is 00:07:51. You can review the statistics here: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/Statistics https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League... Note that the statistics say 11 minutes, but that's 11 in-game minutes and since tournament games are played on "Fastest" mode with a 1.4 multiplier that translates to roughly 8 minutes. If you want to see how actual tournament games are played, here is the most recent GSL playlist, which is considered the premier SC2 tournament: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo2fPnM8EiQyT0kicBS5C-XRc6EHcyaUk https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo2fPnM8EiQyT0kicBS5C... Feel free to breeze through any random game of your choice, most finish within 8 minutes, a lot of them finish within 6 minutes, and on rare occasion you get games that go 15 minutes or longer.
      - aflag 4y ago
        Those statistics are from wings of liberty though (10 years ago). Looking through the playlist you sent the average length seems closer to 15 minutes.
        Kranar 4y ago
        I decided to take the very first 12 games of the playlist and averaged them out, it comes out to 9 minutes and 23 seconds. I don't have a way to automate this and don't have another source for how long modern games take, but sure, for the sake of argument we can say a game is closer to 10 minutes instead of 8 minutes. It doesn't really change anything.
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        Is this the average game, or ten games from the top tournament played on high speed from ten years ago? :)
- ilyt 4y ago
  Uh, that part isn't really interesting, 10 different ways to start a game is not much. I like it for the whole back and forth between players reacting to what the other does, trying to bait them into suboptimal play etc. Kinda same reason why I like Dota2
  - SgtBastard 4y ago
    10 openings x3 races with some openings being hard counters to others. Is chess boring because there’s 20 opening moves? It’s all about the mid-late game.
jnwatson 4y ago
The average game is closer to 12 minutes.
- Kranar 4y ago
  The only evidence I can verify online, based on replay packs of DreamHack I managed to download, this link below [1], and other quantifiable sources such as discussions on the Team Liquid forums suggests that professional games are shorter than 12 minutes and about 7-9 minutes. But even for the sake of argument if you want to go with 12 minutes... 10 openers per race is incredibly small for a 12 minute game and only reinforces the point that for the average viewer, SC2 is quite repetitive. Compare that to DOTA or LoL where the average match at the professional level is on the order of 30-45 minutes and the level of diversity in both of those games is astronomical. [1] https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/Statistics https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League...
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
- professional SC2 games are definitely longer than 6 minutes. - not all strategy is action oriented, scouting early to discover your opponents strategy is a thing, for example - in professional SC2 it's also about the meta-game. It's a game of bluffs and predictions. If a strategy doesn't work out both opponents have to decide if they're going to change or not in the next game in the series. Sometimes your strategy failed because the other player used the counter-strategy. But if they keep the same strategy and you use THEIR counter-strategy, you'll win the next one. That last point is much larger than you might expect. It's a bit like poker.

by Kranar 4y ago

SgtBastard 4y ago

Each race has 8-10 viable “standard” openings and 2-3 “cheese” openings… sure, if you just watch one player who leans heavily on “skytoss” or “1-1-1 Terran” it gets repetitive, but also watching how each player responds to the increasing info about their opponents build from scouting is also interesting.

Kranar 4y ago
You make it seem like 8-10 openings is diverse. 8-10 openings gets very stale and repetitive for a game that only lasts about 6-8 minutes with only 1-2 minutes of actual engagement (and 4-6 minutes of setup).
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  I'd struggle to imagine an average game being resolved in 6-8 minutes.
  - Kranar 4y ago
    Are you being serious? What is your experience or background with SC2? Do you watch it or play it? At any rate, the average game duration for GSL is 00:07:51. You can review the statistics here: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/Statistics https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League... Note that the statistics say 11 minutes, but that's 11 in-game minutes and since tournament games are played on "Fastest" mode with a 1.4 multiplier that translates to roughly 8 minutes. If you want to see how actual tournament games are played, here is the most recent GSL playlist, which is considered the premier SC2 tournament: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo2fPnM8EiQyT0kicBS5C-XRc6EHcyaUk https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo2fPnM8EiQyT0kicBS5C... Feel free to breeze through any random game of your choice, most finish within 8 minutes, a lot of them finish within 6 minutes, and on rare occasion you get games that go 15 minutes or longer.
    - aflag 4y ago
      Those statistics are from wings of liberty though (10 years ago). Looking through the playlist you sent the average length seems closer to 15 minutes.
      - Kranar 4y ago
        I decided to take the very first 12 games of the playlist and averaged them out, it comes out to 9 minutes and 23 seconds. I don't have a way to automate this and don't have another source for how long modern games take, but sure, for the sake of argument we can say a game is closer to 10 minutes instead of 8 minutes. It doesn't really change anything.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      Is this the average game, or ten games from the top tournament played on high speed from ten years ago? :)
ilyt 4y ago
Uh, that part isn't really interesting, 10 different ways to start a game is not much. I like it for the whole back and forth between players reacting to what the other does, trying to bait them into suboptimal play etc. Kinda same reason why I like Dota2
- SgtBastard 4y ago
  10 openings x3 races with some openings being hard counters to others. Is chess boring because there’s 20 opening moves? It’s all about the mid-late game.

jnwatson 4y ago

The average game is closer to 12 minutes.

Kranar 4y ago
The only evidence I can verify online, based on replay packs of DreamHack I managed to download, this link below [1], and other quantifiable sources such as discussions on the Team Liquid forums suggests that professional games are shorter than 12 minutes and about 7-9 minutes. But even for the sake of argument if you want to go with 12 minutes... 10 openers per race is incredibly small for a 12 minute game and only reinforces the point that for the average viewer, SC2 is quite repetitive. Compare that to DOTA or LoL where the average match at the professional level is on the order of 30-45 minutes and the level of diversity in both of those games is astronomical. [1] https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League/Statistics https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Global_StarCraft_II_League...

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

- professional SC2 games are definitely longer than 6 minutes. - not all strategy is action oriented, scouting early to discover your opponents strategy is a thing, for example - in professional SC2 it's also about the meta-game. It's a game of bluffs and predictions. If a strategy doesn't work out both opponents have to decide if they're going to change or not in the next game in the series. Sometimes your strategy failed because the other player used the counter-strategy. But if they keep the same strategy and you use THEIR counter-strategy, you'll win the next one. That last point is much larger than you might expect. It's a bit like poker.