3 ms·

My impression (I do research in this area broadly speaking) is that this sort of tool is not really very strongly related to the reasons why they present no war

My impression (I do research in this area broadly speaking) is that this sort of tool is not really very strongly related to the reasons why they present no warning signs, etc. Implicit measures tend, on replication and rigorous scrutiny, to kind of be very broad brush and not very specific. There is a literature on implicit measurement and suicide, and it seems they hold up, but they don't dramatically add to anything, and there's also tricky issues about the meaning of "preconscious" assessment. So, lots of false positives etc, and also maybe even bigger questions about the meaning of implicit processing relative to conscious opportunities for "revision". I think the problem is, what good does it do if someone has some predilection toward suicide but isn't aware of it? If they were going to be resistant to addressing it without this tool, why would they be less resistant to it with it? The problem with suicide prediction has never really been in predicting suicidal attitudes or cognitions, it's been predicting the actual follow-through with an attempt or success. That depends on a lot of stuff that exists outside of attitudinal space, for lack of a better way of putting it. Someone can basically feel disturbed by the idea until they don't, and then change rapidly in their feelings about it, or vice-versa. I can't say I think this research line is a bad idea; I think the more information the better. But I'm really skeptical about how well it will work up when really skeptically evaluated, with lots of data, especially when you put it to practice. There's a lot more hurdles than people think.

djexjms 4y ago
Even if it turns out not to be the perfect solution, it might turn out that this kind of measurement might be useful for things like estimating the effectiveness of medication and other medical interventions, or even lifestyle changes. Imagine if this kind of thing could be turned into a medical device. Many people who end up committing suicide have had previous suicidal episodes. Being able to have a technology that people with known suicidal tendencies can use to help keep tabs on their own mental health could potentially be as useful to them as blood sugar monitoring is to diabetics.
godelski 4y ago
> I think the problem is, what good does it do if someone has some predilection toward suicide but isn't aware of it? If they were going to be resistant to addressing it without this tool, why would they be less resistant to it with it? (Not a researcher in this area, but someone who's dealt with depression) this is a big concern of mine, and it doesn't seem different from the issues with a standard lie detector. A depressed person can feel fine one day and not the next. If we think of things like anhedonia, grief, guilt, etc they aren't constant day to day. A lot of suicides are preventable simply by getting a person through a day or two. This is the number one reason I'd argue for waiting periods on pistols (most gun deaths are suicides btw). Would such an event even show up on this device? Timing becomes an extremely important factor here. My understanding too is that we still don't even know how these diseases function from a chemical level in the brain (norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin). Categorically there can be: too much, not enough, broken uptake mechanism; and our main treatments are with reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs or SSNRIs) and these tools are really limited in those categories (which are very high level fwiw and need to be broken down substantially more to target good drug delivery). I am also very concerned about how this technology can be abused. While I agree that there can be a lot of uses to it, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned with how it can be abused.

djexjms 4y ago

Even if it turns out not to be the perfect solution, it might turn out that this kind of measurement might be useful for things like estimating the effectiveness of medication and other medical interventions, or even lifestyle changes. Imagine if this kind of thing could be turned into a medical device. Many people who end up committing suicide have had previous suicidal episodes. Being able to have a technology that people with known suicidal tendencies can use to help keep tabs on their own mental health could potentially be as useful to them as blood sugar monitoring is to diabetics.

godelski 4y ago

> I think the problem is, what good does it do if someone has some predilection toward suicide but isn't aware of it? If they were going to be resistant to addressing it without this tool, why would they be less resistant to it with it? (Not a researcher in this area, but someone who's dealt with depression) this is a big concern of mine, and it doesn't seem different from the issues with a standard lie detector. A depressed person can feel fine one day and not the next. If we think of things like anhedonia, grief, guilt, etc they aren't constant day to day. A lot of suicides are preventable simply by getting a person through a day or two. This is the number one reason I'd argue for waiting periods on pistols (most gun deaths are suicides btw). Would such an event even show up on this device? Timing becomes an extremely important factor here. My understanding too is that we still don't even know how these diseases function from a chemical level in the brain (norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin). Categorically there can be: too much, not enough, broken uptake mechanism; and our main treatments are with reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs or SSNRIs) and these tools are really limited in those categories (which are very high level fwiw and need to be broken down substantially more to target good drug delivery). I am also very concerned about how this technology can be abused. While I agree that there can be a lot of uses to it, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned with how it can be abused.