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Physical sports also have a purpose that esports cannot adequately address: the need to discharge physical energy and aggression. There is something primally sa

Physical sports also have a purpose that esports cannot adequately address: the need to discharge physical energy and aggression. There is something primally satisfying in defeating someone in say basketball that cannot be matched in my experience by non-contact activities.

TulliusCicero 4y ago
While that's true, there are also advantages to being non-physical: * You can play way, way more of the game on a daily/weekly basis because you don't really have to worry about endurance/recovery in the same way. * With a few clicks you can grab opponents and teammates of comparable skill near-instantly, at any time, whereas finding a game for a given sport is much more beholden to schedules and other logistical difficulties. I suspect eSports works better for the long tail because of that second point: much harder to develop a critical mass when people have to be local. If you think about how many different sports vs competitive video games you could find a match for with modest effort in the coming week, video games would probably win by a least an order of magnitude, maybe two orders.
silisili 4y ago
My main argument against esports is somewhat similar, though in a different direction. It's odd to me to watch something anyone can do, with minimal investment. Why watch when you could just play? With baseball, football, or basketball, I'd have to not only find a field or court and a bunch of willing participants, but also be in good enough shape to run a bit. Watching Esports is essentially watching someone sit at a computer - something anyone can easily do. I don't mean to discount whatever skill is involved in being a good player, only talking about barriers to entry.
- lmm 4y ago
  The barrier to entry for football is very low. Someone brings a ball, put down a couple of markers for each goal, and there you are; kids play street games all the time. Being out of shape might stop you playing well, but it doesn't stop you playing. Even owning a gaming PC at all is a much higher barrier (a lot of people watching esports will be doing so on phones).
  - doodlesdev 4y ago
    Funnily enough esports also somewhat exist in mobile phones. Take a look at Free Fire [0], here in Brazil (3rd world country) It's pretty popular and has brought some people from poverty to a comfortable living. Also I still believe after the initial investment for a PC or game console then playing competitively just has too low of a barrier compared to normal sports. Remember to play a real sport you need friends, or at least people who accept you, there needs to not be raining (or for there to be an indoor space), everyone needs to be available. Since in videogames you can do matchmaking with low latency with a whole continent that means finding VERY competitive matches is easy, while in real life the skills of each players varies a lot, making the games played day-to-day much more casual. The difference between a casual football game and a FIFA WC game is insane, the difference between a well-played high rank match in CS:GO and the ones played in torunaments is minimal in comparison, specially if using something like Faceit to matchmake. [0]: https://www.ffesports.com/ https://www.ffesports.com/
- jchw 4y ago
  I guess you'd find Chess to be on similar footing?
  - silisili 4y ago
    Absolutely - that was one of the first things that came to my mind. Though personally, I find skilled chess players much more talented than skilled video game players. There -is- a market for it, obviously, but it's not and probably will never be a considerable fraction of the market compared to more 'out of reach' sports.
    - jchw 4y ago
      Given that there are pro chess players who are also pro competitive gamers, I doubt the gap is nearly as big as you are imagining. The skill ceiling for some video games is extremely high. I would in fact be unsurprised if it was possible to objectively compare difficulty and come to the conclusion that there are competitive video games which are significantly harder than top-level chess. I realize this sounds ridiculous, but the breadth of competitive gaming is very large, and many video games have extremely huge meta games, come down to millisecond-level reaction time differences, and so forth. There's even a physical aspect, as a lot of video games can put immense physical stress on specific muscles. I think most people think of the bigger spectator games, like Fortnite or MOBAs and the like, but those games are not necessarily the upper echelon of eSports; plenty of niche games make for very interesting competition. Like NES Tetris with CTWC even! NES Tetris is mostly about solo execution, but there are other puzzle games, such as Puyo Puyo, which is maddeningly difficult to become even casually decent at, and has a huge sprawling metagame in versus matches. Then there's fighting games. So many fighting games. The interactions between matchups in fighting games have made for such interesting and divergent strategies that games literally nearing 30 years old are still having their metagame evolve through innovations in play style, honing in execution, or even just very carefully studying game mechanics. (Note: I am not suggesting there are necessarily CURRENTLY video game competitions where the top competitors are as "skilled" as top chess players, but chess play has had much longer to evolve than any video game. That said: due to the internet, I do think skills of average players has gone up much more rapidly than historically, and I am just suggesting there's likely games with similar or perhaps higher ceilings, with top competitors in a similar wheelhouse. This especially since video games can take advantage of more kinds of skills due to the technology.) It's easy to write off pro gaming, but in my opinion, it's full of surprises. Honestly, I think you can even forget about only competitive gaming and alone; a surprising number of people tune in just to watch people "speedrun" video games solo. The art of speedruns or speed demos is probably one of the most fascinating subcultures, and the amount of work poured into the "perfect" run is completely unfathomable. Maybe even crazier to me that people just do it for the love of the sport. I think the "spectator sport" potential of video games mostly has to do with how fun it is to watch rather than how high level the competition is. The latter can help, especially if you have competitors with running storylines, but let's face it: a huge part of it is the game itself (some games are very amusing to watch, like say, Rocket League) and the audience's connection to it. I don't really think it's hit the ceiling. In fact, I agree with the notion that it is limited in large part due to the tensions with business models. You can see this very clearly with Nintendo, a company notoriously bad at community outreach and sparring with their own playerbase. Even if their games were not the best competitive gaming experiences ever, it feels like they often can't reach their potential in large part due to legal issues, and that is probably not too uncommon. Valve and Epic Games seem to be a lot better about supporting their respective communities, but it still feels like by and large, there is a growing tension in eSports and it has little to do with the games themselves.
- shmel 4y ago
  But playing football or basketball is that easy. I have the same objection about football, so many people love watching it, but relatively few of them play. I never understood why, if you love something, surely it is a lot more rewarding to play it yourself. Local kids in my area play basketball almost every evening, I regularly see them coming from work. How is that different from computer games?
  - mbg721 4y ago
    Are we talking about American football or association football/soccer? With American football, you can play it casually, but the rule changes you have to make in order for people not to get clobbered turn it into a very different game from what you see in a pro or college setting. (The level of working out aggression is different too.)
    - shmel 4y ago
      I am not very familiar with American football. I meant the game where players kick the ball.
user_named 4y ago
A sport is just a competition you can broadcast and sell ads on. That is all.

TulliusCicero 4y ago

While that's true, there are also advantages to being non-physical: * You can play way, way more of the game on a daily/weekly basis because you don't really have to worry about endurance/recovery in the same way. * With a few clicks you can grab opponents and teammates of comparable skill near-instantly, at any time, whereas finding a game for a given sport is much more beholden to schedules and other logistical difficulties. I suspect eSports works better for the long tail because of that second point: much harder to develop a critical mass when people have to be local. If you think about how many different sports vs competitive video games you could find a match for with modest effort in the coming week, video games would probably win by a least an order of magnitude, maybe two orders.

silisili 4y ago

My main argument against esports is somewhat similar, though in a different direction. It's odd to me to watch something anyone can do, with minimal investment. Why watch when you could just play? With baseball, football, or basketball, I'd have to not only find a field or court and a bunch of willing participants, but also be in good enough shape to run a bit. Watching Esports is essentially watching someone sit at a computer - something anyone can easily do. I don't mean to discount whatever skill is involved in being a good player, only talking about barriers to entry.

lmm 4y ago
The barrier to entry for football is very low. Someone brings a ball, put down a couple of markers for each goal, and there you are; kids play street games all the time. Being out of shape might stop you playing well, but it doesn't stop you playing. Even owning a gaming PC at all is a much higher barrier (a lot of people watching esports will be doing so on phones).
- doodlesdev 4y ago
  Funnily enough esports also somewhat exist in mobile phones. Take a look at Free Fire [0], here in Brazil (3rd world country) It's pretty popular and has brought some people from poverty to a comfortable living. Also I still believe after the initial investment for a PC or game console then playing competitively just has too low of a barrier compared to normal sports. Remember to play a real sport you need friends, or at least people who accept you, there needs to not be raining (or for there to be an indoor space), everyone needs to be available. Since in videogames you can do matchmaking with low latency with a whole continent that means finding VERY competitive matches is easy, while in real life the skills of each players varies a lot, making the games played day-to-day much more casual. The difference between a casual football game and a FIFA WC game is insane, the difference between a well-played high rank match in CS:GO and the ones played in torunaments is minimal in comparison, specially if using something like Faceit to matchmake. [0]: https://www.ffesports.com/ https://www.ffesports.com/
jchw 4y ago
I guess you'd find Chess to be on similar footing?
- silisili 4y ago
  Absolutely - that was one of the first things that came to my mind. Though personally, I find skilled chess players much more talented than skilled video game players. There -is- a market for it, obviously, but it's not and probably will never be a considerable fraction of the market compared to more 'out of reach' sports.
  - jchw 4y ago
    Given that there are pro chess players who are also pro competitive gamers, I doubt the gap is nearly as big as you are imagining. The skill ceiling for some video games is extremely high. I would in fact be unsurprised if it was possible to objectively compare difficulty and come to the conclusion that there are competitive video games which are significantly harder than top-level chess. I realize this sounds ridiculous, but the breadth of competitive gaming is very large, and many video games have extremely huge meta games, come down to millisecond-level reaction time differences, and so forth. There's even a physical aspect, as a lot of video games can put immense physical stress on specific muscles. I think most people think of the bigger spectator games, like Fortnite or MOBAs and the like, but those games are not necessarily the upper echelon of eSports; plenty of niche games make for very interesting competition. Like NES Tetris with CTWC even! NES Tetris is mostly about solo execution, but there are other puzzle games, such as Puyo Puyo, which is maddeningly difficult to become even casually decent at, and has a huge sprawling metagame in versus matches. Then there's fighting games. So many fighting games. The interactions between matchups in fighting games have made for such interesting and divergent strategies that games literally nearing 30 years old are still having their metagame evolve through innovations in play style, honing in execution, or even just very carefully studying game mechanics. (Note: I am not suggesting there are necessarily CURRENTLY video game competitions where the top competitors are as "skilled" as top chess players, but chess play has had much longer to evolve than any video game. That said: due to the internet, I do think skills of average players has gone up much more rapidly than historically, and I am just suggesting there's likely games with similar or perhaps higher ceilings, with top competitors in a similar wheelhouse. This especially since video games can take advantage of more kinds of skills due to the technology.) It's easy to write off pro gaming, but in my opinion, it's full of surprises. Honestly, I think you can even forget about only competitive gaming and alone; a surprising number of people tune in just to watch people "speedrun" video games solo. The art of speedruns or speed demos is probably one of the most fascinating subcultures, and the amount of work poured into the "perfect" run is completely unfathomable. Maybe even crazier to me that people just do it for the love of the sport. I think the "spectator sport" potential of video games mostly has to do with how fun it is to watch rather than how high level the competition is. The latter can help, especially if you have competitors with running storylines, but let's face it: a huge part of it is the game itself (some games are very amusing to watch, like say, Rocket League) and the audience's connection to it. I don't really think it's hit the ceiling. In fact, I agree with the notion that it is limited in large part due to the tensions with business models. You can see this very clearly with Nintendo, a company notoriously bad at community outreach and sparring with their own playerbase. Even if their games were not the best competitive gaming experiences ever, it feels like they often can't reach their potential in large part due to legal issues, and that is probably not too uncommon. Valve and Epic Games seem to be a lot better about supporting their respective communities, but it still feels like by and large, there is a growing tension in eSports and it has little to do with the games themselves.
shmel 4y ago
But playing football or basketball is that easy. I have the same objection about football, so many people love watching it, but relatively few of them play. I never understood why, if you love something, surely it is a lot more rewarding to play it yourself. Local kids in my area play basketball almost every evening, I regularly see them coming from work. How is that different from computer games?
- mbg721 4y ago
  Are we talking about American football or association football/soccer? With American football, you can play it casually, but the rule changes you have to make in order for people not to get clobbered turn it into a very different game from what you see in a pro or college setting. (The level of working out aggression is different too.)
  - shmel 4y ago
    I am not very familiar with American football. I meant the game where players kick the ball.

user_named 4y ago

A sport is just a competition you can broadcast and sell ads on. That is all.