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Only if you limit yourself to using solar generated with Minnesota's state borders. Solar, Wind, HVDC transmission lines, short-term battery storage get us mos

Only if you limit yourself to using solar generated with Minnesota's state borders. Solar, Wind, HVDC transmission lines, short-term battery storage get us most of the way there, and is all on the process of being built out now. Medium term storage is still up in the air (flow batteries? compressed air?). Long term storage looks like hydrogen or natural gas with carbon capture. All these things seem more achievable than fusion in the next few decades.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> if you limit yourself to using solar generated with Minnesota's state borders I live in a cold state. The idea of relying on out-of-state power, regulated and controlled by people with zero accountability to you, for life-and-death energy is a tough sell.
- megaman821 4y ago
  Bad news then. You most assuredly rely on natural gas from Texas traveling through a long underground pipeline to heat your homes and businesses. Relying on solar electricity from Texas or Arizona traveling through a long wire isn't going to change the status quo much.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > most assuredly rely on natural gas from Texas traveling through a long underground pipeline to heat your homes and businesses Last I checked, we mine our own coal, pump our own oil and put up our own wind farms [1]. Minnesota, for what it’s worth, runs on renewables, coal and nukes [2]. The fifth of natural gas it does use comes from Canada, the Dakotas and Iowa. These cold-state energy security concerns are a big part of the political puzzle that gets missed in the national discourse. [1] https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/products/wsgs-2012-electricalgeneration-summary.pdf https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/products/wsgs-2012-electricalgenera... [2] https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=MN https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=MN
    - megaman821 4y ago
      In northern states almost all residential energy use is heating. The amount of electricity used is minimal, therefore even modest amounts of electricity generation can meet need. Wyoming is the only northern state that has natural gas in notable amounts, all other states import a lot of their energy (especially heating) needs. If most states stopped importing energy they would have to go back to wood and coal-fired stoves. That would be a huge quality of life reduction in terms of convenience and home air quality.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > almost all residential energy use is heating. The amount of electricity used is minimal Resistive heating. > most states stopped importing energy they would have to go back to wood and coal-fired stoves Most states don’t have high-baseload, low-latency life-or-death energy requirements. Those that do have the options I outlined above.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Heat pumps should be paired with rooftop solar and batteries whenever possible for resiliency. I admit the use of natural gas will decline in my lifetime, but probably won’t be fully deprecated.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  The state you live in has one of the highest potentials for wind power in the country, easily backed by transmission, batteries, and as a last resort, natural gas. High level, the energy transition isn't simply a fossil->renewables story, but also a centralization->highly decentralized story.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    Totally agree, though I don’t know how wind performs in extended and deep subzero / heavy snow conditions. Hydropower is the traditional baseload for the Midwest, but it’s tough to square the destruction to natural beauty that entails in comparison with a remote nuclear set-up. EDIT: It seems not too badly [1]. [1] https://empoweringmichigan.com/how-do-wind-turbines-work-in-cold-weather/ https://empoweringmichigan.com/how-do-wind-turbines-work-in-...
    - kelnos 4y ago
      What does the geothermal story look like? I expect it's expensive to first set up, but after that, maybe it's cost-effective and reliable? Asking because I genuinely don't know, but haven't seen it mentioned in this subthread.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/resource-assessment-mapping.html https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/resource-assessment-mapping.... https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/assets/images/resource-assessment-mapping-geothermal-resource.jpg https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/assets/images/resource-asses...
        KMag 4y ago
        Note that there are two common uses of "geothermal". One is for geothermal power generation, and but there's also an unfortunate use of the term in describing ground-loop heat pumps and similar technologies. Ground loop heat exchanges are a godsend for heat pump efficiency in the deep of the Minnesota winter, but it's very different from a source of heat that's practically exploitable for electricity generation. From the context, I think your link is relevant to the GP's question. However, if you search for "geothermal Minnesota", you'll get hits primarily related to ground-loop heat pumps. Note that in the Minneapolis area, the ground will freeze down about 3 feet in winter, so you need to bury your ground loop deeper than that. The frost line is even deeper up in the Duluth area. (Also, you need to use an air compressor to purge the vast majority of water out of any in-ground sprinkler systems before the ground freezes.)

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> if you limit yourself to using solar generated with Minnesota's state borders I live in a cold state. The idea of relying on out-of-state power, regulated and controlled by people with zero accountability to you, for life-and-death energy is a tough sell.

megaman821 4y ago
Bad news then. You most assuredly rely on natural gas from Texas traveling through a long underground pipeline to heat your homes and businesses. Relying on solar electricity from Texas or Arizona traveling through a long wire isn't going to change the status quo much.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > most assuredly rely on natural gas from Texas traveling through a long underground pipeline to heat your homes and businesses Last I checked, we mine our own coal, pump our own oil and put up our own wind farms [1]. Minnesota, for what it’s worth, runs on renewables, coal and nukes [2]. The fifth of natural gas it does use comes from Canada, the Dakotas and Iowa. These cold-state energy security concerns are a big part of the political puzzle that gets missed in the national discourse. [1] https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/products/wsgs-2012-electricalgeneration-summary.pdf https://www.wsgs.wyo.gov/products/wsgs-2012-electricalgenera... [2] https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=MN https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=MN
  - megaman821 4y ago
    In northern states almost all residential energy use is heating. The amount of electricity used is minimal, therefore even modest amounts of electricity generation can meet need. Wyoming is the only northern state that has natural gas in notable amounts, all other states import a lot of their energy (especially heating) needs. If most states stopped importing energy they would have to go back to wood and coal-fired stoves. That would be a huge quality of life reduction in terms of convenience and home air quality.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > almost all residential energy use is heating. The amount of electricity used is minimal Resistive heating. > most states stopped importing energy they would have to go back to wood and coal-fired stoves Most states don’t have high-baseload, low-latency life-or-death energy requirements. Those that do have the options I outlined above.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Heat pumps should be paired with rooftop solar and batteries whenever possible for resiliency. I admit the use of natural gas will decline in my lifetime, but probably won’t be fully deprecated.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
The state you live in has one of the highest potentials for wind power in the country, easily backed by transmission, batteries, and as a last resort, natural gas. High level, the energy transition isn't simply a fossil->renewables story, but also a centralization->highly decentralized story.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  Totally agree, though I don’t know how wind performs in extended and deep subzero / heavy snow conditions. Hydropower is the traditional baseload for the Midwest, but it’s tough to square the destruction to natural beauty that entails in comparison with a remote nuclear set-up. EDIT: It seems not too badly [1]. [1] https://empoweringmichigan.com/how-do-wind-turbines-work-in-cold-weather/ https://empoweringmichigan.com/how-do-wind-turbines-work-in-...
  - kelnos 4y ago
    What does the geothermal story look like? I expect it's expensive to first set up, but after that, maybe it's cost-effective and reliable? Asking because I genuinely don't know, but haven't seen it mentioned in this subthread.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/resource-assessment-mapping.html https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/resource-assessment-mapping.... https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/assets/images/resource-assessment-mapping-geothermal-resource.jpg https://www.nrel.gov/geothermal/assets/images/resource-asses...
      - KMag 4y ago
        Note that there are two common uses of "geothermal". One is for geothermal power generation, and but there's also an unfortunate use of the term in describing ground-loop heat pumps and similar technologies. Ground loop heat exchanges are a godsend for heat pump efficiency in the deep of the Minnesota winter, but it's very different from a source of heat that's practically exploitable for electricity generation. From the context, I think your link is relevant to the GP's question. However, if you search for "geothermal Minnesota", you'll get hits primarily related to ground-loop heat pumps. Note that in the Minneapolis area, the ground will freeze down about 3 feet in winter, so you need to bury your ground loop deeper than that. The frost line is even deeper up in the Duluth area. (Also, you need to use an air compressor to purge the vast majority of water out of any in-ground sprinkler systems before the ground freezes.)