4 ms·

> Solar panels are cheap and batteries are easier to build and there are lots of ways of making them. Right now they are, but they often rely on materials from

> Solar panels are cheap and batteries are easier to build and there are lots of ways of making them. Right now they are, but they often rely on materials from politically unstable regions (particularly Africa), or potential political rivals (China). Also, many solar panels require polysilicon from China, which is almost certainly produced with forced labor. https://www.csis.org/analysis/dark-spot-solar-energy-industry-forced-labor-xinjiang https://www.csis.org/analysis/dark-spot-solar-energy-industr... https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/12/clean-energy-china-xinjiang-uyghur-labor/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/12/clean-energy-china-xinj... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/29/evidence-grows-of-forced-labour-and-slavery-in-production-of-solar-panels-wind-turbines https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/29/evidence... And it's not just a China problem. "On batteries, there were major issues with the mining of between 15% and 30% of the world’s cobalt in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Amnesty International found that children, some as young as seven, were working in artisanal cobalt mines, often for less than $2 a day. Mining conditions were reportedly hazardous, and workers often did not have adequate protective equipment and were exposed to toxic dust that contributed to hard metal lung disease." The US is trying to crack down but Europe is lagging behind on it. However, if the report's claim (which I see no reason to doubt) that China has 82% of the global polysilicon market is true, with most of their polysilicon production being in the Xinjiang region, calling solar panels (or batteries) "cheap" is fairly distasteful considering their sources.

rapsey 4y ago
Mechanical, flow, heat, compressed air, pumped hydro are all types of batteries. All capable of storing MW to GW of power. It is not all lithium and cobalt.
- automatic6131 4y ago
  Once again, I am reminding HackerNews that the technology to build a battery capable of storing enough renewable electrical energy for the (world|nation) for even half a day *does not exist* at any reasonable cost. And if you want to store multiple days for a northerly nation with very cold winters, frequent high pressure anticyclones (so, no wind) that can last about a week, and you want to switch everyone to zero carbon heating, then the technology doubly doesn't exist. And the only retort to the above will be mumbling "yeah, but exponential improvement in batteries plus didn't someone say something about hydrogen?" which is essentially, wishful thinking. When you can build a zero carbon grid out of nuclear fission plants - and we've known how to do so since the 60s.
  - VaxWithSex 4y ago
    Sure it exists, it is called compressed air. Even better with CO2. Close to me is the oldest one, built in 1972 and still operational today: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Huntorf https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Huntorf
  - rapsey 4y ago
    > Once again, I am reminding HackerNews that the technology to build a battery capable of storing enough renewable electrical energy for the (world|nation) for even half a day does not exist at any reasonable cost. But it is almost certainly closer to existence than fusion.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      Almost certainly not. The US alone generates 4,095 billion kWh yearly. For a half a day, you would need to store 5,600,000,000 kWh. Tesla Megapack can store 3916 kWh fully loaded. This means you would need 1,430,000 Megapacks to power the US for half a day. With Tesla only being capable of producing roughly 40,000,000 kWh of Megapacks annually, it would take 140 years to produce all the batteries. If Tesla created 100 times the factory capacity they have now (which, could the supply of raw materials even withstand the smallest fraction of that?), it would take 14 years, for batteries that have a warranty of 15 years. These are lithium-ion batteries which are the most space-efficient, unless you don't mind clearing hundreds of square miles of space for this project. Did I mention it costs about $1 million per Megapack right now, so this project would cost $1.4 TRILLION assuming all Lithium+Cobalt+Supplies+Labor cost the same as they do now despite demand being increased 100x, and ignoring all engineering costs, and factory scaling costs, which could multiply the cost exponentially. All to power the US for just half a day. Now consider how to add Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, the rest of North America... We're not close, and it's basically completely unfeasible. Fusion will be closer in 100 years than such a project.
      - rapsey 4y ago
        I have listed 5 different types of batteries than Tesla makes. A number more are much farther than the fundamental science stage of Fusion. Tesla primarily makes batteries for cars, grid storage is actually way more flexible in the type of battery that can be used. You are missing the forest for the trees.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
There are quite a few battery chemistries now that don't involve any cobalt. And the ones that do can get their cobalt from more reputable sources than the mining industries founded by colonial powers in Africa. (often backed by big oil and mining corporations). Cobalt and other minerals were mined long before lithium ion batteries came along, for example. For all the crocodile tears about children mining cobalt, it's easy to forget how other industries can be just as bad or much worse. Of course, critics of batteries are laser focused on only and exclusively criticizing how bad things are when it comes to batteries and literally nothing else whatsoever. I mean, do you want to talk about oil? Or coal? Or copper? Or uranium? Nasty industries, each of them. Especially oil. Lots of environmental destruction, poor working conditions, the occasional bit of genocide or sponsored corruption, wars, etc. Mining and oil/gas industry just are a nasty. Especially when everybody just accepts it as normal and looks the other way.

rapsey 4y ago

Mechanical, flow, heat, compressed air, pumped hydro are all types of batteries. All capable of storing MW to GW of power. It is not all lithium and cobalt.

automatic6131 4y ago
Once again, I am reminding HackerNews that the technology to build a battery capable of storing enough renewable electrical energy for the (world|nation) for even half a day *does not exist* at any reasonable cost. And if you want to store multiple days for a northerly nation with very cold winters, frequent high pressure anticyclones (so, no wind) that can last about a week, and you want to switch everyone to zero carbon heating, then the technology doubly doesn't exist. And the only retort to the above will be mumbling "yeah, but exponential improvement in batteries plus didn't someone say something about hydrogen?" which is essentially, wishful thinking. When you can build a zero carbon grid out of nuclear fission plants - and we've known how to do so since the 60s.
- VaxWithSex 4y ago
  Sure it exists, it is called compressed air. Even better with CO2. Close to me is the oldest one, built in 1972 and still operational today: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Huntorf https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Huntorf
- rapsey 4y ago
  > Once again, I am reminding HackerNews that the technology to build a battery capable of storing enough renewable electrical energy for the (world|nation) for even half a day does not exist at any reasonable cost. But it is almost certainly closer to existence than fusion.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    Almost certainly not. The US alone generates 4,095 billion kWh yearly. For a half a day, you would need to store 5,600,000,000 kWh. Tesla Megapack can store 3916 kWh fully loaded. This means you would need 1,430,000 Megapacks to power the US for half a day. With Tesla only being capable of producing roughly 40,000,000 kWh of Megapacks annually, it would take 140 years to produce all the batteries. If Tesla created 100 times the factory capacity they have now (which, could the supply of raw materials even withstand the smallest fraction of that?), it would take 14 years, for batteries that have a warranty of 15 years. These are lithium-ion batteries which are the most space-efficient, unless you don't mind clearing hundreds of square miles of space for this project. Did I mention it costs about $1 million per Megapack right now, so this project would cost $1.4 TRILLION assuming all Lithium+Cobalt+Supplies+Labor cost the same as they do now despite demand being increased 100x, and ignoring all engineering costs, and factory scaling costs, which could multiply the cost exponentially. All to power the US for just half a day. Now consider how to add Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, the rest of North America... We're not close, and it's basically completely unfeasible. Fusion will be closer in 100 years than such a project.
    - rapsey 4y ago
      I have listed 5 different types of batteries than Tesla makes. A number more are much farther than the fundamental science stage of Fusion. Tesla primarily makes batteries for cars, grid storage is actually way more flexible in the type of battery that can be used. You are missing the forest for the trees.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

There are quite a few battery chemistries now that don't involve any cobalt. And the ones that do can get their cobalt from more reputable sources than the mining industries founded by colonial powers in Africa. (often backed by big oil and mining corporations). Cobalt and other minerals were mined long before lithium ion batteries came along, for example. For all the crocodile tears about children mining cobalt, it's easy to forget how other industries can be just as bad or much worse. Of course, critics of batteries are laser focused on only and exclusively criticizing how bad things are when it comes to batteries and literally nothing else whatsoever. I mean, do you want to talk about oil? Or coal? Or copper? Or uranium? Nasty industries, each of them. Especially oil. Lots of environmental destruction, poor working conditions, the occasional bit of genocide or sponsored corruption, wars, etc. Mining and oil/gas industry just are a nasty. Especially when everybody just accepts it as normal and looks the other way.