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It's not very relevant to tell people of Ukraine what they should be thinking or identifying as. Even the very first narodniks of the Russian Empire realized th

It's not very relevant to tell people of Ukraine what they should be thinking or identifying as. Even the very first narodniks of the Russian Empire realized the big cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians. Estonians and Finns are very similar in ways regarding culture and language, yet distinctly different as well. You wouldn't deny Estonia's existence and relegate it to some mistake made by Trotsky in 1918 when he failed to conquer the nation.

xkcd1963 4y ago
Could you elaborate on the big cultural differences please you seem to be proficient on this topic
- Tomis02 4y ago
  Ukrainians speak Ukrainian, Russians speak Russian. It's true that due to being bilingual, Ukrainians can consume Russian content, but saying they have the same culture is kinda like saying Austrians and Germans have the same culture because they speak the same language. Interestingly enough, historically, Russia's culture was "Ukrainianized" around the 17th and 18th century, being heavily influenced by Kyiv's culture (influences can be seen if you look at the history of painting, music, architecture). But that's another topic.
  - xkcd1963 4y ago
    I'm going to argue with you because I'd say culture is a very abstract and complex thing and is not, lets say, as simple as culture in a civ game. Looking at your example.. a German can go to Austria and will understand 95% of the language spoken and probably 99% in Wien. Sometimes there are different languages within a country like in Switzerland, is Switzerland now culturally divided or one culture even though they speak four to five languages there? Also one would get regional differences of the same language like dialects, and it might even go down to the lowest common multiple like words that only you and your friends/family use. Next: Many Ukranians do speak Russian and some Russians speak Ukranian. If you use language as the canon for culture definition then yes, Germans and Austrians share the same culture because both speak German. I never heard that Russia's culture was Ukranianized. After the moscowians kicked the Mongols out of the region around the 14th century Moscow became the center of power. I would be happy if you could cite me some source of this.
    - Tomis02 4y ago
      Well, I can keep going. One possible definition of culture is "stories that we have in common". Ukraine has its own literature (in the Ukrainian language, but not only), its own music, its own religious cult (Kyivan Patriarchate, rather than Moscovian), a very different political model, different personalities, different role-models. > If you use language as the canon for culture definition I'm not, I was simply dispelling from the start the idea that speaking the same language means having the same culture. By that rationale we could say that USA, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Malta and India have the same culture, which would be ridiculous. > I never heard that Russia's culture was Ukranianized... I would be happy if you could cite me some source of this. So glad you asked. I'll provide two sources (well, one and a half) that can't be suspected to have any bias against Russia, and after that I'll let you do your own research. One is Nikolai Trubetzkoy, who once wrote: "Таким образом, старая великорусская, московская культура при Петре умерла; та культура, которая со времен Петра живет и развивается в России, является органическим и непосредственным продолжением не московской, а киевской, украинской культуры." - http://www.hai-nyzhnyk.in.ua/doc2/1928.trubeckoi.php http://www.hai-nyzhnyk.in.ua/doc2/1928.trubeckoi.php The second one, I'm sure you'll recognize for yourself. "Киев - мать городов русских" - https://news.obozrevatel.com/politics/49831-putin-nazval-kiev-materyu-russkih-gorodov.htm https://news.obozrevatel.com/politics/49831-putin-nazval-kie... . > After the moscowians kicked the Mongols out of the region around the 14th century Haha. You're oversimplifying to make it look like a rosy battle for independence, when in fact Moscow simply enhanced its power by opportunistically backstabbing its neighbours and being the main collaborators of the Mongols. As an example, Moscow was an ALLY of the mongols when putting down the Tver rebellion. That is how Moscow managed to increase its power and become the dominant force in the area; in modern terms - by being a collaborator with the occupant. Sorry, I guess they forgot to mention this in school. Edit: perhaps this is something they teach you in school - around the time of Peter the Great, a series of reforms were introduced to Westernize Russia, and many people refused to comply because they believed it to be against the cultural and religious norms by which they and their ancestors lived. This clash led to persecutions and an exodus, with many people fleeing Russia in all directions. Descendants of those people (Old Believers, but not only) still live, to this day. So in a sense, the Old Russian culture, the authentic one, only lives in a few places around the world outside of Russia, whereas the current so-called Russian culture in fact originates from the West and Ukraine. Вот это поворот!

xkcd1963 4y ago

Could you elaborate on the big cultural differences please you seem to be proficient on this topic

Tomis02 4y ago
Ukrainians speak Ukrainian, Russians speak Russian. It's true that due to being bilingual, Ukrainians can consume Russian content, but saying they have the same culture is kinda like saying Austrians and Germans have the same culture because they speak the same language. Interestingly enough, historically, Russia's culture was "Ukrainianized" around the 17th and 18th century, being heavily influenced by Kyiv's culture (influences can be seen if you look at the history of painting, music, architecture). But that's another topic.
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  I'm going to argue with you because I'd say culture is a very abstract and complex thing and is not, lets say, as simple as culture in a civ game. Looking at your example.. a German can go to Austria and will understand 95% of the language spoken and probably 99% in Wien. Sometimes there are different languages within a country like in Switzerland, is Switzerland now culturally divided or one culture even though they speak four to five languages there? Also one would get regional differences of the same language like dialects, and it might even go down to the lowest common multiple like words that only you and your friends/family use. Next: Many Ukranians do speak Russian and some Russians speak Ukranian. If you use language as the canon for culture definition then yes, Germans and Austrians share the same culture because both speak German. I never heard that Russia's culture was Ukranianized. After the moscowians kicked the Mongols out of the region around the 14th century Moscow became the center of power. I would be happy if you could cite me some source of this.
  - Tomis02 4y ago
    Well, I can keep going. One possible definition of culture is "stories that we have in common". Ukraine has its own literature (in the Ukrainian language, but not only), its own music, its own religious cult (Kyivan Patriarchate, rather than Moscovian), a very different political model, different personalities, different role-models. > If you use language as the canon for culture definition I'm not, I was simply dispelling from the start the idea that speaking the same language means having the same culture. By that rationale we could say that USA, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Malta and India have the same culture, which would be ridiculous. > I never heard that Russia's culture was Ukranianized... I would be happy if you could cite me some source of this. So glad you asked. I'll provide two sources (well, one and a half) that can't be suspected to have any bias against Russia, and after that I'll let you do your own research. One is Nikolai Trubetzkoy, who once wrote: "Таким образом, старая великорусская, московская культура при Петре умерла; та культура, которая со времен Петра живет и развивается в России, является органическим и непосредственным продолжением не московской, а киевской, украинской культуры." - http://www.hai-nyzhnyk.in.ua/doc2/1928.trubeckoi.php http://www.hai-nyzhnyk.in.ua/doc2/1928.trubeckoi.php The second one, I'm sure you'll recognize for yourself. "Киев - мать городов русских" - https://news.obozrevatel.com/politics/49831-putin-nazval-kiev-materyu-russkih-gorodov.htm https://news.obozrevatel.com/politics/49831-putin-nazval-kie... . > After the moscowians kicked the Mongols out of the region around the 14th century Haha. You're oversimplifying to make it look like a rosy battle for independence, when in fact Moscow simply enhanced its power by opportunistically backstabbing its neighbours and being the main collaborators of the Mongols. As an example, Moscow was an ALLY of the mongols when putting down the Tver rebellion. That is how Moscow managed to increase its power and become the dominant force in the area; in modern terms - by being a collaborator with the occupant. Sorry, I guess they forgot to mention this in school. Edit: perhaps this is something they teach you in school - around the time of Peter the Great, a series of reforms were introduced to Westernize Russia, and many people refused to comply because they believed it to be against the cultural and religious norms by which they and their ancestors lived. This clash led to persecutions and an exodus, with many people fleeing Russia in all directions. Descendants of those people (Old Believers, but not only) still live, to this day. So in a sense, the Old Russian culture, the authentic one, only lives in a few places around the world outside of Russia, whereas the current so-called Russian culture in fact originates from the West and Ukraine. Вот это поворот!