4 ms·

Lithium batteries certainly aren't more CO2 efficient. You're just outsourcing the exhaust somewhere else.

marssaxman 4y ago
That could only be true if you lived somewhere with an old-fashioned grid that had no renewables. Using an electric car means C02 emissions per mile will continue to drop over time, as utilities add new solar and wind capacity.
- Invictus0 4y ago
  And the emissions due to mining the lithium and cobalt? https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=Currently%2C%20most%20lithium%20is%20extracted,are%20emitted%20into%20the%20air https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufac....
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    Whoa, I've never seen this `#:~:text=` thing (apparently called "scroll-to-text"), but it seems to work on every page I try it on. How come I've never heard of this browser feature? https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment Too bad it doesn't work on Firefox.
  - burkaman 4y ago
    Why post this question? The article you linked answers it clearly.
  - elihu 4y ago
    "Particularly in hard rock mining, for every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air." Estimates seem to vary, but this is claiming that there's about 12 kg of lithium in a 70 kwh Tesla battery: https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-electric-car https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-e... So, that's 180 kg of CO2 for enough lithium to make a large car battery. If your first quote is actually referring to 15 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium carbonate mined, then there's 63 kg of that, the mining of which causes about 945 kg of CO2 emissions. Burning a gallon of gas emits about 9 kg of CO2. A car that gets 30 miles to the gallon will burn about 6700 gallons of gas over a 200,000 mile lifetime, resulting in 60,000 kg of CO2 emissions. There are other environmental issues with mining lithium and cobalt and other energy costs involved in making the batteries, but CO2 emissions from mining is way down there on the list of things to be worried about.
- burkaman 4y ago
  It's not even true then, a coal-powered EV results in less emissions than a gas-powered car because the EV engine is so much more energy-efficient.
  - marssaxman 4y ago
    Thanks! I had forgotten about that aspect.
pfdietz 4y ago
A combined cycle power plant can be more than 60% efficient (LHV). The efficiency of an IC car can be in the low 20%s. And cars burn a fuel with a higher C:H ratio than natural gas.
ravenstine 4y ago
That is until our primary electrical sources aren't releasing sequestered CO2 from the earth's crust, assuming we get there before destroying ourselves. A lot of people do own EVs thinking they're saving the earth while being ignorant to where their electricity is coming from. That doesn't mean EVs aren't going to help us get there in terms of clean energy.
burkaman 4y ago
This isn't true and you know it. Producing an electric car releases slightly more emissions than an ICE car, but as soon as you start actually driving them the EV has a far smaller carbon impact, even if your electricity is 100% coal (which it almost certainly isn't). EVs are way more energy-efficient than ICE vehicles. Something like 80% of the energy from the gas you put in your car is wasted.

That could only be true if you lived somewhere with an old-fashioned grid that had no renewables. Using an electric car means C02 emissions per mile will continue to drop over time, as utilities add new solar and wind capacity.

Invictus0 4y ago
And the emissions due to mining the lithium and cobalt? https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=Currently%2C%20most%20lithium%20is%20extracted,are%20emitted%20into%20the%20air https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufac....
- ravenstine 4y ago
  Whoa, I've never seen this `#:~:text=` thing (apparently called "scroll-to-text"), but it seems to work on every page I try it on. How come I've never heard of this browser feature? https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment https://caniuse.com/url-scroll-to-text-fragment Too bad it doesn't work on Firefox.
- burkaman 4y ago
  Why post this question? The article you linked answers it clearly.
- elihu 4y ago
  "Particularly in hard rock mining, for every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air." Estimates seem to vary, but this is claiming that there's about 12 kg of lithium in a 70 kwh Tesla battery: https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-electric-car https://www.quora.com/How-much-lithium-in-kg-is-used-in-an-e... So, that's 180 kg of CO2 for enough lithium to make a large car battery. If your first quote is actually referring to 15 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium carbonate mined, then there's 63 kg of that, the mining of which causes about 945 kg of CO2 emissions. Burning a gallon of gas emits about 9 kg of CO2. A car that gets 30 miles to the gallon will burn about 6700 gallons of gas over a 200,000 mile lifetime, resulting in 60,000 kg of CO2 emissions. There are other environmental issues with mining lithium and cobalt and other energy costs involved in making the batteries, but CO2 emissions from mining is way down there on the list of things to be worried about.
burkaman 4y ago
It's not even true then, a coal-powered EV results in less emissions than a gas-powered car because the EV engine is so much more energy-efficient.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  Thanks! I had forgotten about that aspect.

pfdietz 4y ago

A combined cycle power plant can be more than 60% efficient (LHV). The efficiency of an IC car can be in the low 20%s. And cars burn a fuel with a higher C:H ratio than natural gas.

ravenstine 4y ago

That is until our primary electrical sources aren't releasing sequestered CO2 from the earth's crust, assuming we get there before destroying ourselves. A lot of people do own EVs thinking they're saving the earth while being ignorant to where their electricity is coming from. That doesn't mean EVs aren't going to help us get there in terms of clean energy.

burkaman 4y ago

This isn't true and you know it. Producing an electric car releases slightly more emissions than an ICE car, but as soon as you start actually driving them the EV has a far smaller carbon impact, even if your electricity is 100% coal (which it almost certainly isn't). EVs are way more energy-efficient than ICE vehicles. Something like 80% of the energy from the gas you put in your car is wasted.