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It is worth mentioning there is a difference in general how people think in new authoritarianisms and in those that have been ongoing for decades. Here someone

It is worth mentioning there is a difference in general how people think in new authoritarianisms and in those that have been ongoing for decades. Here someone dreams that dreams are forbidden and does it anyway. When one's lived their entire life under authoritarian rule one's dreams are often already self censored. When your next door neighbor is dragged out of his flat at 4am by secret service never to appear again and You think that is how things should be any manifestation of "reactionary" thought is unbearable. This makes the fact we have diaries and books written even in places like Russian gulags in which people record such thoughts even more astonishing. Long time ago as a teenager I hated being forced to read those "horribly depressing" books, but now I think it should be required reading in schools specially in countries that did this stuff to their citizens and others.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stdbrouw 4y ago
Language nitpick: a reactionary reacts against reform and favors the status quo, in authoritarian regimes revolutionary thoughts become unbearable.
- boredumb 4y ago
  Since he referred to the gulag in Russia, which was authoritarianism installed by left wing revolutionaries, using the word reactionary is accurate.
  - mindslight 4y ago
    "Left" and "Right" are some of the least specific terms used to describe political views, so detouring through them to muddy up a more precise term would seem to cloud understanding.
    - boredumb 4y ago
      Left and right are incredibly well defined and understood if people are being genuine. Left wing politics generally believe that the government and central planning are good in varying degrees, right wing politics generally believe that government is a necessary evil and should be given as little responsibility as possible with economics and social planning. With that aside, they were socialist revolutionaries. Terms are only imprecise because of people trying to redefine it when it's inconvenient for their views. Whether it's in the original interpretation in europe, they literally killed their russian royals... or in the modern interpretation of the word they were socialists who believed in the power of the state and central planning as being tenants of a good society.
      - scythe 4y ago
        >Left wing politics generally believe that the government and central planning are good in varying degrees, right wing politics generally believe that government is a necessary evil and should be given as little responsibility as possible with economics and social planning. Under this definition, the Drug War is left-wing, as are restrictions on access to abortion or contraception, restrictions on children's attendance or participation in beauty pageants or drag shows, and restrictions on either public nudity or traditional religious garb. Now if you really believe all of those policies are left-wing, fine, but I think it's not as simple as you want to make it seem.
      - mindslight 4y ago
        > Left wing politics generally believe that the government and central planning are good in varying degrees, right wing politics generally believe that government is a necessary evil and should be given as little responsibility as possible with economics and social planning Sorry, no. You're cherry picking the aspects of left-right that make for a favorable argument. In a different context, one could point out how leftists favor decentralization while rightists are fans of centralized control. Rather than getting bogged down in painting with a broad brush, just so the two contemporary "left" and "right" teams can duke it out over who gets to take blame/credit for the past, it's better to stay focused on specific beliefs and dynamics. I agree that in this case, the revolutionaries are appropriately described as leftist. However once they've taken power and become entrenched, it's appropriate to describe those attempting to preserve the status quo of that power structure as reactionaries - just as it would be appropriate to describe any group (rightist or different leftist) attempting to overthrow that leftist-branded power structure as revolutionaries.
- yostrovs 4y ago
  Authoritarian regimes often come from revolutions and present themselves as revolutionary, even many decades after the revolution. So anyone suspect of being against the regime is described as being reactionary.
  - stdbrouw 4y ago
    Hadn't thought of it that way, my bad, thanks for the clarification!
    - formerly_proven 4y ago
      Iran's IRGC - Islamic Revolution Guard Corps (i.e. the ones guarding the revolution from interior and exterior threats) - is perhaps the most literal extant example of this phenomenon.
- eli_gottlieb 4y ago
  In capitalist America, being against the government is revolutionary. In Soviet Russia, being against the government is reactionary!
  - 082349872349872 4y ago
    Just to complicate things, the "no step on snek" poorly-regulated "militia" set are reactionaries who cosplay revolutionaries.
- cryptonector 4y ago
  Except it depends on usage. In Soviet times and places "reactionary" meant being against the regime.
badpun 4y ago
Dostoyevsky is a good example of that - he was caught taking part in (relatively innocent) freethink anti-carist meetings and got sent for 8 years to a severe Siberian labor camp for it. While staying there, he gradually converted to being pro-carist and pro-regime, a stance that was not just a fake to potentially get him out of there sooner.
- failuser 4y ago
  The conversion is not fake, that is a pretty common trajectory. BTW, he was scheduled for execution, brought to the gallows and pardoned at the last second. That alone changed him.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    There is a reason mock executions are generally considered to be a form of torture.
FpUser 4y ago
>"but now I think it should be required reading in schools" Let me up the ante. Put real unedited war / oppression / prison / etc. etc. footage including most gory stuff on youtube and TV and feed it to people every day "specially in countries that did this stuff to their citizens and others." Bet this will destroy quite a few governments.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  It had come to [Squealer's] knowledge, he said, that a foolish and wicked rumour had been circulated at the time of Boxer's removal. Some of the animals had noticed that the van which took Boxer away was marked "Horse Slaughterer," and had actually jumped to the conclusion that Boxer was being sent to the knacker's. It was almost unbelievable, said Squealer, that any animal could be so stupid. Surely, he cried indignantly, whisking his tail and skipping from side to side, surely they knew their beloved Leader, Comrade Napoleon, better than that? But the explanation was really very simple. The van had previously been the property of the knacker, and had been bought by the veterinary surgeon, who had not yet painted the old name out. That was how the mistake had arisen.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

stdbrouw 4y ago

Language nitpick: a reactionary reacts against reform and favors the status quo, in authoritarian regimes revolutionary thoughts become unbearable.

boredumb 4y ago
Since he referred to the gulag in Russia, which was authoritarianism installed by left wing revolutionaries, using the word reactionary is accurate.
- mindslight 4y ago
  "Left" and "Right" are some of the least specific terms used to describe political views, so detouring through them to muddy up a more precise term would seem to cloud understanding.
  - boredumb 4y ago
    Left and right are incredibly well defined and understood if people are being genuine. Left wing politics generally believe that the government and central planning are good in varying degrees, right wing politics generally believe that government is a necessary evil and should be given as little responsibility as possible with economics and social planning. With that aside, they were socialist revolutionaries. Terms are only imprecise because of people trying to redefine it when it's inconvenient for their views. Whether it's in the original interpretation in europe, they literally killed their russian royals... or in the modern interpretation of the word they were socialists who believed in the power of the state and central planning as being tenants of a good society.
    - scythe 4y ago
      >Left wing politics generally believe that the government and central planning are good in varying degrees, right wing politics generally believe that government is a necessary evil and should be given as little responsibility as possible with economics and social planning. Under this definition, the Drug War is left-wing, as are restrictions on access to abortion or contraception, restrictions on children's attendance or participation in beauty pageants or drag shows, and restrictions on either public nudity or traditional religious garb. Now if you really believe all of those policies are left-wing, fine, but I think it's not as simple as you want to make it seem.
    - mindslight 4y ago
      > Left wing politics generally believe that the government and central planning are good in varying degrees, right wing politics generally believe that government is a necessary evil and should be given as little responsibility as possible with economics and social planning Sorry, no. You're cherry picking the aspects of left-right that make for a favorable argument. In a different context, one could point out how leftists favor decentralization while rightists are fans of centralized control. Rather than getting bogged down in painting with a broad brush, just so the two contemporary "left" and "right" teams can duke it out over who gets to take blame/credit for the past, it's better to stay focused on specific beliefs and dynamics. I agree that in this case, the revolutionaries are appropriately described as leftist. However once they've taken power and become entrenched, it's appropriate to describe those attempting to preserve the status quo of that power structure as reactionaries - just as it would be appropriate to describe any group (rightist or different leftist) attempting to overthrow that leftist-branded power structure as revolutionaries.
yostrovs 4y ago
Authoritarian regimes often come from revolutions and present themselves as revolutionary, even many decades after the revolution. So anyone suspect of being against the regime is described as being reactionary.
- stdbrouw 4y ago
  Hadn't thought of it that way, my bad, thanks for the clarification!
  - formerly_proven 4y ago
    Iran's IRGC - Islamic Revolution Guard Corps (i.e. the ones guarding the revolution from interior and exterior threats) - is perhaps the most literal extant example of this phenomenon.
eli_gottlieb 4y ago
In capitalist America, being against the government is revolutionary. In Soviet Russia, being against the government is reactionary!
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  Just to complicate things, the "no step on snek" poorly-regulated "militia" set are reactionaries who cosplay revolutionaries.
cryptonector 4y ago
Except it depends on usage. In Soviet times and places "reactionary" meant being against the regime.

badpun 4y ago

Dostoyevsky is a good example of that - he was caught taking part in (relatively innocent) freethink anti-carist meetings and got sent for 8 years to a severe Siberian labor camp for it. While staying there, he gradually converted to being pro-carist and pro-regime, a stance that was not just a fake to potentially get him out of there sooner.

failuser 4y ago
The conversion is not fake, that is a pretty common trajectory. BTW, he was scheduled for execution, brought to the gallows and pardoned at the last second. That alone changed him.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  There is a reason mock executions are generally considered to be a form of torture.

FpUser 4y ago

>"but now I think it should be required reading in schools" Let me up the ante. Put real unedited war / oppression / prison / etc. etc. footage including most gory stuff on youtube and TV and feed it to people every day "specially in countries that did this stuff to their citizens and others." Bet this will destroy quite a few governments.

082349872349872 4y ago
It had come to [Squealer's] knowledge, he said, that a foolish and wicked rumour had been circulated at the time of Boxer's removal. Some of the animals had noticed that the van which took Boxer away was marked "Horse Slaughterer," and had actually jumped to the conclusion that Boxer was being sent to the knacker's. It was almost unbelievable, said Squealer, that any animal could be so stupid. Surely, he cried indignantly, whisking his tail and skipping from side to side, surely they knew their beloved Leader, Comrade Napoleon, better than that? But the explanation was really very simple. The van had previously been the property of the knacker, and had been bought by the veterinary surgeon, who had not yet painted the old name out. That was how the mistake had arisen.