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At the individual level, the boundaries are really blurry. I'm a Russian. I know many Ukrainians. Often, when you meet a Ukrainian, you'll never know that they

At the individual level, the boundaries are really blurry. I'm a Russian. I know many Ukrainians. Often, when you meet a Ukrainian, you'll never know that they are, in fact, from Ukraine, unless you ask. Sometimes their pronunciation ("г" as "h" instead of "g") would give them away, but other than that, there are practically zero differences — especially cultural ones. We really are mostly the same people and we should really be friends. Everyone would benefit from that. It's a shame that the ambitions of one person are splitting us apart like that.

actionfromafar 4y ago
History is full of similar peoples fighting wars. But it's not just one person either, the Brat movies don't exist in a vacuum, do they? Voldemort is enabled by a base and a system.
dopidopHN 4y ago
Amen. You seen Gagarin meme from early war? Where he call from the past and ask who is the foe that Russia and Ukraine are fighting against; together?
Georgelemental 4y ago
[flagged]
- bawolff 4y ago
  Wars aren't usually faught because people are different. Even in bitter ethnic conflict there is often an underlying cause that isn't really about the people being different.
- grishka 4y ago
  The message is very different. The Russian government propaganda boils down to "we would have won this war already if The West™ wouldn't supply Ukraine with weapons that they then use to commit the utterly terroristic acts of taking back their land". Or "we aren't all that different which means Ukrainians shouldn't have their own sovereign state". Or "Ukrainians are Russians who just forgot about that and are now on a misguided path of western influence, we're here to remind them of their Russianness". You get the idea.
podviaznikov 4y ago
As a Ukrainian living abroad for 12 years it’s the opposite for me. It’s easy to spot russian person: visually, by russian accent, by English accent, by the way of carrying themselves and so on. There were always tons of different queues: not 100% accurate, but many good heuristics.
- GauntletWizard 4y ago
  Both can be true; Russia is a big place that's sort of an amalgam itself.
  - podviaznikov 4y ago
    Parent comment is mostly true to russian people. They assume if the other people know russian language and understand their culture it means everything else is the same. But lots of nations in that region in addition to understanding russian language and culture have their own. A and that is why it can never be said that we are the same people. At a minimum such statements and observations come as the result of ignorance - there are not many russian people that I know that would come and visit Ukrainian museums or ask for a tour or ask a question about Ukrainian history. If you have settled world view and don’t try to learn of course you will not see counterexamples of what you believe in IRL and you would just write decades old cliches like “we are the same people”
    - GauntletWizard 4y ago
      I can't fault you for taking it as hostility and ignorance, considering the present circumstances, but it doesn't have to be that way. The United States is a nation of nations, and while the same ignorance of local history is broadly true, there can be brotherhood despite that. I'll admit, though, that the US is showing some fraying of those bonds.
      - podviaznikov 4y ago
        “brotherhood” seems like a fancy word used in propaganda. It’s too high level and too abstract. You don’t start with “brotherhood”. A you start with respect. Respecting your neighbor. Respecting people practicing some different religion, or having different sexual orientation, or speaking different language, or practicing different traditions. “brotherhood” is about recognizing that we are all human despite all the differences in the ways we live. First do that. And that is fundamental difference between the US and russia.
kreetx 4y ago
Is there any good source on the topic of "г" pronounced as "h" instead of "g"? I've studied Russian as a second language and once got into an argument over whether Russian has the equivalent of "h" because "x" is pronounced as "kh", which is harder than "h". Does this phenomenon have some name, as googling didn't turn out much?
- brabarossa 4y ago
  You're looking for fricative /ɣ/ in southern dialect. Relevant links: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B3%D1%8D%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8C%D0%B5 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B3%D1%8D%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B0 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87...
- grishka 4y ago
  It's hard to describe in writing, but I'll try. There's no "h" sound, like the one where you just exhale, neither in Russian nor Ukrainian. The Russian "г" is hard, like "g" in "get". The Ukrainian equivalent to that is "ґ", but their "г" is something in between, closer to "kh". The fact that many English-language reports about the war do transliterate "г" as "h" in Ukrainian toponyms doesn't help, but it's as close as one could reasonably get to the real Ukrainian pronunciation. There's so much no such sound that I've seen Hebrew and Arabic transcribed into Russian with the character "h" for that sound. > Does this phenomenon have some name, as googling didn't turn out much? Certainly not a formal one. Хэканье? Or maybe simply украинский акцент?
  - h4n1 4y ago
    The Ukrainian г is a voiced glottal fricative, IPA /ɦ/. This is as the English /h/ sound but voiced. Southern Russian dialects use /ɣ/, a voiced velar fricative, which is pronounced like /ɦ/ but further forward in the throat. East Slavic dialects turn Proto-Slavic /ɡ/ more into /ɦ/ the further south you go.
d3vmax 4y ago
I disagree with you. Ukranian and Russians are not the same people. It is this type of thinking that Ukranian people are same is what got us in today's soup. And it's a shame of not one person's ambition but of Russian ideology in general and years of acceptance of it. Putin is a reflection of the society not the other way round. So, stop deflecting blame and accept responsibility.
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  If Ukranians cannot be Russians then all Russians are Ukranians. It's as simple as that to me. But I accept now that people have the freedom to choose whatever nationality they want to be, even if it appears irrational. Similarly restrictive though, nobody is allowed to be Russian in Ukraine now and since this whole mess began.
  - murdoze 4y ago
    W/a the Polish? Warsaw used to be part of your empire. Or the lucky bastards are in NATO already, out of your reach?
    - xkcd1963 4y ago
      I've already stated that in my opinion everyone can chose their own nationality, I don't get why your response is contrary in conclusion to what I just had written.
Tomis02 4y ago
> We really are mostly the same people Heh, it's kinda stereotypical that a Russian citizen wouldn't notice the difference between themselves and Ukrainians. From my perspective as a foreign observer, the average Russian tends to be much more badly behaved than a Ukrainian. When I hear someone speaking Russian being very loud and obnoxious, violent, lacking manners, showing little empathy and lots of entitlement, 9/10 (I'd say always but maybe I'm forgetting something) it's a Russian citizen, not a Ukrainian. I'm speaking as a Russian ethnic who's not a Russian citizen.

actionfromafar 4y ago

History is full of similar peoples fighting wars. But it's not just one person either, the Brat movies don't exist in a vacuum, do they? Voldemort is enabled by a base and a system.

dopidopHN 4y ago

Amen. You seen Gagarin meme from early war? Where he call from the past and ask who is the foe that Russia and Ukraine are fighting against; together?

Georgelemental 4y ago

[flagged]

bawolff 4y ago
Wars aren't usually faught because people are different. Even in bitter ethnic conflict there is often an underlying cause that isn't really about the people being different.
grishka 4y ago
The message is very different. The Russian government propaganda boils down to "we would have won this war already if The West™ wouldn't supply Ukraine with weapons that they then use to commit the utterly terroristic acts of taking back their land". Or "we aren't all that different which means Ukrainians shouldn't have their own sovereign state". Or "Ukrainians are Russians who just forgot about that and are now on a misguided path of western influence, we're here to remind them of their Russianness". You get the idea.

podviaznikov 4y ago

As a Ukrainian living abroad for 12 years it’s the opposite for me. It’s easy to spot russian person: visually, by russian accent, by English accent, by the way of carrying themselves and so on. There were always tons of different queues: not 100% accurate, but many good heuristics.

GauntletWizard 4y ago
Both can be true; Russia is a big place that's sort of an amalgam itself.
- podviaznikov 4y ago
  Parent comment is mostly true to russian people. They assume if the other people know russian language and understand their culture it means everything else is the same. But lots of nations in that region in addition to understanding russian language and culture have their own. A and that is why it can never be said that we are the same people. At a minimum such statements and observations come as the result of ignorance - there are not many russian people that I know that would come and visit Ukrainian museums or ask for a tour or ask a question about Ukrainian history. If you have settled world view and don’t try to learn of course you will not see counterexamples of what you believe in IRL and you would just write decades old cliches like “we are the same people”
  - GauntletWizard 4y ago
    I can't fault you for taking it as hostility and ignorance, considering the present circumstances, but it doesn't have to be that way. The United States is a nation of nations, and while the same ignorance of local history is broadly true, there can be brotherhood despite that. I'll admit, though, that the US is showing some fraying of those bonds.
    - podviaznikov 4y ago
      “brotherhood” seems like a fancy word used in propaganda. It’s too high level and too abstract. You don’t start with “brotherhood”. A you start with respect. Respecting your neighbor. Respecting people practicing some different religion, or having different sexual orientation, or speaking different language, or practicing different traditions. “brotherhood” is about recognizing that we are all human despite all the differences in the ways we live. First do that. And that is fundamental difference between the US and russia.

kreetx 4y ago

Is there any good source on the topic of "г" pronounced as "h" instead of "g"? I've studied Russian as a second language and once got into an argument over whether Russian has the equivalent of "h" because "x" is pronounced as "kh", which is harder than "h". Does this phenomenon have some name, as googling didn't turn out much?

brabarossa 4y ago
You're looking for fricative /ɣ/ in southern dialect. Relevant links: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B3%D1%8D%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%8C%D0%B5 https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B3%D1%8D%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Russian_dialects https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA%D0%B0 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87...
grishka 4y ago
It's hard to describe in writing, but I'll try. There's no "h" sound, like the one where you just exhale, neither in Russian nor Ukrainian. The Russian "г" is hard, like "g" in "get". The Ukrainian equivalent to that is "ґ", but their "г" is something in between, closer to "kh". The fact that many English-language reports about the war do transliterate "г" as "h" in Ukrainian toponyms doesn't help, but it's as close as one could reasonably get to the real Ukrainian pronunciation. There's so much no such sound that I've seen Hebrew and Arabic transcribed into Russian with the character "h" for that sound. > Does this phenomenon have some name, as googling didn't turn out much? Certainly not a formal one. Хэканье? Or maybe simply украинский акцент?
- h4n1 4y ago
  The Ukrainian г is a voiced glottal fricative, IPA /ɦ/. This is as the English /h/ sound but voiced. Southern Russian dialects use /ɣ/, a voiced velar fricative, which is pronounced like /ɦ/ but further forward in the throat. East Slavic dialects turn Proto-Slavic /ɡ/ more into /ɦ/ the further south you go.

d3vmax 4y ago

I disagree with you. Ukranian and Russians are not the same people. It is this type of thinking that Ukranian people are same is what got us in today's soup. And it's a shame of not one person's ambition but of Russian ideology in general and years of acceptance of it. Putin is a reflection of the society not the other way round. So, stop deflecting blame and accept responsibility.

xkcd1963 4y ago
If Ukranians cannot be Russians then all Russians are Ukranians. It's as simple as that to me. But I accept now that people have the freedom to choose whatever nationality they want to be, even if it appears irrational. Similarly restrictive though, nobody is allowed to be Russian in Ukraine now and since this whole mess began.
- murdoze 4y ago
  W/a the Polish? Warsaw used to be part of your empire. Or the lucky bastards are in NATO already, out of your reach?
  - xkcd1963 4y ago
    I've already stated that in my opinion everyone can chose their own nationality, I don't get why your response is contrary in conclusion to what I just had written.

Tomis02 4y ago

> We really are mostly the same people Heh, it's kinda stereotypical that a Russian citizen wouldn't notice the difference between themselves and Ukrainians. From my perspective as a foreign observer, the average Russian tends to be much more badly behaved than a Ukrainian. When I hear someone speaking Russian being very loud and obnoxious, violent, lacking manners, showing little empathy and lots of entitlement, 9/10 (I'd say always but maybe I'm forgetting something) it's a Russian citizen, not a Ukrainian. I'm speaking as a Russian ethnic who's not a Russian citizen.