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For me, the surprising part was learning how many Russian people I know have parents or grandparents who were born in Ukraine. I knew that Soviet Ukraine had ~

For me, the surprising part was learning how many Russian people I know have parents or grandparents who were born in Ukraine. I knew that Soviet Ukraine had ~50 million people. Almost 20% of the USSR, and a bit less than France, Italy, or the UK at the time. I knew that Ukraine was one of the most developed and densely populated parts of the USSR, and of the Russian Empire before that. I had some idea how the borders had moved over time, and how the cultural boundaries were ambiguous as a consequence. I just had not realized how often that ambiguity would show at individual level.

augustuspolius 4y ago
Interesting - I never attributed that to moving borders. USSR had a pretty mixed society with many people moving between different republics during their lifetime (especially in the 40-60s). Don’t think borders changed much during that period.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Go back a little more in time and the borders, both geographically and culturally, are very push and pull between Moscow and Kiev.
jojobas 4y ago
It's not just about borders. Ukraine has some Russian Empire's/USSR's most fertile land. It was facing serious overpopulation (i.e. peasants with no land to work on) in the end of the 19th century, while Russia had a lot of unpopulated land in Siberia and the Far East, facing imperial Japan and potentially China. Ukrainian peasants were offered free land and transport if they moved east in an attempt to solve these two problems, and many used the opportunity.
- forinti 4y ago
  I wonder if such a solution could have been used for the Donbas: offer space in Russia to those opposed to Kiev rule. Russia needs people, after all.
grishka 4y ago
At the individual level, the boundaries are really blurry. I'm a Russian. I know many Ukrainians. Often, when you meet a Ukrainian, you'll never know that they are, in fact, from Ukraine, unless you ask. Sometimes their pronunciation ("г" as "h" instead of "g") would give them away, but other than that, there are practically zero differences — especially cultural ones. We really are mostly the same people and we should really be friends. Everyone would benefit from that. It's a shame that the ambitions of one person are splitting us apart like that.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  History is full of similar peoples fighting wars. But it's not just one person either, the Brat movies don't exist in a vacuum, do they? Voldemort is enabled by a base and a system.
- dopidopHN 4y ago
  Amen. You seen Gagarin meme from early war? Where he call from the past and ask who is the foe that Russia and Ukraine are fighting against; together?
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - bawolff 4y ago
    Wars aren't usually faught because people are different. Even in bitter ethnic conflict there is often an underlying cause that isn't really about the people being different.
  - grishka 4y ago
    The message is very different. The Russian government propaganda boils down to "we would have won this war already if The West™ wouldn't supply Ukraine with weapons that they then use to commit the utterly terroristic acts of taking back their land". Or "we aren't all that different which means Ukrainians shouldn't have their own sovereign state". Or "Ukrainians are Russians who just forgot about that and are now on a misguided path of western influence, we're here to remind them of their Russianness". You get the idea.
vbezhenar 4y ago
My mother is Russian. My father is Ukrainian. I never saw any difference between those cultures other than Ukrainian language being a funny version of Russian. I never had any issue communicating with Ukrainian people and then didn't have issues understanding me either. I don't believe there's ANY difference between Russians and Ukrainians. To me it's the one nation and that's about it. Ukrainian-Russian war is a civil war fueled by the West, it's not the first civil war in this world and won't be the last I guess.
- vasergen 4y ago
  I am Ukranian and I am strongly disagree with you. First of all don't call Ukranian language funny version of Russian. Second "civil war" - is the war between citizen in the same country. Now answer on 2 questions: - who crossed the border of independed country? - where is the war going on? Yes, there are of course a lot of similarities between Ukranians and people in Russia, as there are between Ukranian and Polish people or between Polish people and people in Check Republic.
  - vbezhenar 4y ago
- possiblelion 4y ago
  It's not very relevant to tell people of Ukraine what they should be thinking or identifying as. Even the very first narodniks of the Russian Empire realized the big cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians. Estonians and Finns are very similar in ways regarding culture and language, yet distinctly different as well. You wouldn't deny Estonia's existence and relegate it to some mistake made by Trotsky in 1918 when he failed to conquer the nation.
  - xkcd1963 4y ago
    Could you elaborate on the big cultural differences please you seem to be proficient on this topic
int_19h 4y ago
The cultures are close enough that when people move, the second generation is often completely assimilated culturally even if they remember the origin of their parents.
orthoxerox 4y ago
Think of it as England and Ireland. The Wikipedia category [0] is massive, but there's a difference between how the Irish and the English view their two nations. A modal Englishman could say, "the English, the Welsh, the Scottish and the Irish built the British Empire together, we should all be proud of what we did", but a modal Irishman would reply, "no, thanks, we didn't need your empire and we don't need your patronizing fraternization". The fact that both of them have a grandparent from Derry and a grandparent from Norfolk wouldn't matter at all. Ukraine is currently undergoing the same kind of national divorce. Ukrainian roots don't matter, what matters is that one supports the idea of Ukraine being a distinct nation with its own way. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_people_of_Irish_descent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_people_of_Iri...

augustuspolius 4y ago

Interesting - I never attributed that to moving borders. USSR had a pretty mixed society with many people moving between different republics during their lifetime (especially in the 40-60s). Don’t think borders changed much during that period.

actionfromafar 4y ago
Go back a little more in time and the borders, both geographically and culturally, are very push and pull between Moscow and Kiev.

jojobas 4y ago

It's not just about borders. Ukraine has some Russian Empire's/USSR's most fertile land. It was facing serious overpopulation (i.e. peasants with no land to work on) in the end of the 19th century, while Russia had a lot of unpopulated land in Siberia and the Far East, facing imperial Japan and potentially China. Ukrainian peasants were offered free land and transport if they moved east in an attempt to solve these two problems, and many used the opportunity.

forinti 4y ago
I wonder if such a solution could have been used for the Donbas: offer space in Russia to those opposed to Kiev rule. Russia needs people, after all.

grishka 4y ago

At the individual level, the boundaries are really blurry. I'm a Russian. I know many Ukrainians. Often, when you meet a Ukrainian, you'll never know that they are, in fact, from Ukraine, unless you ask. Sometimes their pronunciation ("г" as "h" instead of "g") would give them away, but other than that, there are practically zero differences — especially cultural ones. We really are mostly the same people and we should really be friends. Everyone would benefit from that. It's a shame that the ambitions of one person are splitting us apart like that.

actionfromafar 4y ago
History is full of similar peoples fighting wars. But it's not just one person either, the Brat movies don't exist in a vacuum, do they? Voldemort is enabled by a base and a system.
dopidopHN 4y ago
Amen. You seen Gagarin meme from early war? Where he call from the past and ask who is the foe that Russia and Ukraine are fighting against; together?
Georgelemental 4y ago
[flagged]
- bawolff 4y ago
  Wars aren't usually faught because people are different. Even in bitter ethnic conflict there is often an underlying cause that isn't really about the people being different.
- grishka 4y ago
  The message is very different. The Russian government propaganda boils down to "we would have won this war already if The West™ wouldn't supply Ukraine with weapons that they then use to commit the utterly terroristic acts of taking back their land". Or "we aren't all that different which means Ukrainians shouldn't have their own sovereign state". Or "Ukrainians are Russians who just forgot about that and are now on a misguided path of western influence, we're here to remind them of their Russianness". You get the idea.

vbezhenar 4y ago

My mother is Russian. My father is Ukrainian. I never saw any difference between those cultures other than Ukrainian language being a funny version of Russian. I never had any issue communicating with Ukrainian people and then didn't have issues understanding me either. I don't believe there's ANY difference between Russians and Ukrainians. To me it's the one nation and that's about it. Ukrainian-Russian war is a civil war fueled by the West, it's not the first civil war in this world and won't be the last I guess.

vasergen 4y ago
I am Ukranian and I am strongly disagree with you. First of all don't call Ukranian language funny version of Russian. Second "civil war" - is the war between citizen in the same country. Now answer on 2 questions: - who crossed the border of independed country? - where is the war going on? Yes, there are of course a lot of similarities between Ukranians and people in Russia, as there are between Ukranian and Polish people or between Polish people and people in Check Republic.
- vbezhenar 4y ago
possiblelion 4y ago
It's not very relevant to tell people of Ukraine what they should be thinking or identifying as. Even the very first narodniks of the Russian Empire realized the big cultural differences between Ukrainians and Russians. Estonians and Finns are very similar in ways regarding culture and language, yet distinctly different as well. You wouldn't deny Estonia's existence and relegate it to some mistake made by Trotsky in 1918 when he failed to conquer the nation.
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  Could you elaborate on the big cultural differences please you seem to be proficient on this topic

int_19h 4y ago

The cultures are close enough that when people move, the second generation is often completely assimilated culturally even if they remember the origin of their parents.

orthoxerox 4y ago

Think of it as England and Ireland. The Wikipedia category [0] is massive, but there's a difference between how the Irish and the English view their two nations. A modal Englishman could say, "the English, the Welsh, the Scottish and the Irish built the British Empire together, we should all be proud of what we did", but a modal Irishman would reply, "no, thanks, we didn't need your empire and we don't need your patronizing fraternization". The fact that both of them have a grandparent from Derry and a grandparent from Norfolk wouldn't matter at all. Ukraine is currently undergoing the same kind of national divorce. Ukrainian roots don't matter, what matters is that one supports the idea of Ukraine being a distinct nation with its own way. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_people_of_Irish_descent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_people_of_Iri...