5 ms·

I've to step in here, because also native Russians starved during the Holodomor. My grandmother saw half-starved people and corpses as a child in the city

by xkcd1963 4y ago

augustuspolius 4y ago
Just to clarify - native Russians in Ukraine or outside of it? If the former then it’s not surprising, the genocide was directed at specific territories.
- chokolad 4y ago
  > Just to clarify - native Russians in Ukraine or outside of it? If the former then it’s not surprising, the genocide was directed at specific territories. Outside. Specifically, Volga Region, Kazakhstan, Urals and Siberia This Wiki article describes it in details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%93...
- alwayslikethis 4y ago
  I don't think "genocide" is the right term here. It is part of a wider man-made famine, which is an act of great evil perpetrated by the communist regime, but it affected all parts of the southern USSR, including areas with mainly ethnic Russian populations. For more information, you may want to read more about the policies that led to this event, such as "dekulakization"
  - augustuspolius 4y ago
    I am aware that genocide is a disputed term in this context. I lean towards it because the famine disproportionately affected Ukrainians (and Kazakhs) and was at least in part not mitigated intentionally to punish minorities with a stronger anti-Soviet sentiment.
    - justsomehnguy 4y ago
      > I am aware Yet you use it. > I lean towards Maybe because you just want to use it? Just look at the map[0], read the legend. Explain who were the people in 18, 17, 11 regions? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Famine_en_URSS_1933.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Famine_en_URSS_1933.jpg
      - asveikau 4y ago
        Probably a lot of ethnic Ukrainians? Are you aware that Ukraine previously had more expansive borders? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_Ukraine_%28postcard_1919%29.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_U... That's 14 years before 1933, and the border was not there by then, but...
        justsomehnguy 4y ago
        > Are you aware that Ukraine previously had more expansive borders I would prefer a slighly more credible resource than a postcard made in times of great turmoil. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Evropayskye_gubernii_Rossii_1910.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Evropays... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Subdivisions_of_the_Russian_Empire_by_largest_ethnolinguistic_group_%281897%29.svg/4648px-Subdivisions_of_the_Russian_Empire_by_largest_ethnolinguistic_group_%281897%29.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Su...
        nullifidian 4y ago
        The second map separates big cities and the rest, could look misleading in some cases.
        int_19h 4y ago
        This particular map is the territory claimed by the then still newly-minted Ukrainian state. Basically the then-current Ukrainian equivalent of the likes of Greater Serbia, Greater Hungary etc. There was no border in those territories for so long, anything they could have drawn wouldn't really have any meaningful historical connection. So IIRC they went by the Russian Imperial demographic maps and claimed most territories on those showed >25% "Malorossians". Ironically, this ended up pilfering some territories from Belarus, as well - note where Pinsk is on that map!
- orthoxerox 4y ago
  Outside. Basically, there was a broad swath of territories where smallholder peasants thrived and wouldn't agree to collectivization without state terror. It included most of Soviet-controlled Ukraine and a large chunk of southern Russia. The discussion basically amounts to "are heavy-handed anti-crime policies targeting urban youths racist against Blacks or not?" - "No they aren't, because they target all urban youths, including Hispanics and Whites, and not just Blacks" - "Yes they are, because they affect a disproportionate share of young Black people. The fact that they affect a disproportionate share of young Hispanics doesn't make it less racist"
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  Rostov-on-Don. It was kind of founded 1749 on decree of the Empress Elizabeth so it couldn't get even more Russian. But we have many different ethnicities there https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TWD2Kkrd_bo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TWD2Kkrd_bo (german filmmaker 1918)
thescriptkiddie 4y ago
In fact more Kazakhs starved than Ukrainians. The idea that the famine was confined to Ukraine is completely ahistorical.
murdoze 4y ago
Collateral damage
- xkcd1963 4y ago
  The fact that Holodomor was causing collateral damage as you call it means that it was not specifically targeted at Ukranians. The target must have been something else that might even not have to do with nationality
  - murdoze 4y ago
    Dare to substitute Holocaust for Holodomor in this context? If, of course, what you're telling is true.

I've to step in here, because also native Russians starved during the Holodomor. My grandmother saw half-starved people and corpses as a child in the city

augustuspolius 4y ago

Just to clarify - native Russians in Ukraine or outside of it? If the former then it’s not surprising, the genocide was directed at specific territories.

chokolad 4y ago
> Just to clarify - native Russians in Ukraine or outside of it? If the former then it’s not surprising, the genocide was directed at specific territories. Outside. Specifically, Volga Region, Kazakhstan, Urals and Siberia This Wiki article describes it in details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%931933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1930%E2%80%93...
alwayslikethis 4y ago
I don't think "genocide" is the right term here. It is part of a wider man-made famine, which is an act of great evil perpetrated by the communist regime, but it affected all parts of the southern USSR, including areas with mainly ethnic Russian populations. For more information, you may want to read more about the policies that led to this event, such as "dekulakization"
- augustuspolius 4y ago
  I am aware that genocide is a disputed term in this context. I lean towards it because the famine disproportionately affected Ukrainians (and Kazakhs) and was at least in part not mitigated intentionally to punish minorities with a stronger anti-Soviet sentiment.
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    > I am aware Yet you use it. > I lean towards Maybe because you just want to use it? Just look at the map[0], read the legend. Explain who were the people in 18, 17, 11 regions? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Famine_en_URSS_1933.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Famine_en_URSS_1933.jpg
    - asveikau 4y ago
      Probably a lot of ethnic Ukrainians? Are you aware that Ukraine previously had more expansive borders? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_Ukraine_%28postcard_1919%29.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Map_of_U... That's 14 years before 1933, and the border was not there by then, but...
      - justsomehnguy 4y ago
        > Are you aware that Ukraine previously had more expansive borders I would prefer a slighly more credible resource than a postcard made in times of great turmoil. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Evropayskye_gubernii_Rossii_1910.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Evropays... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Subdivisions_of_the_Russian_Empire_by_largest_ethnolinguistic_group_%281897%29.svg/4648px-Subdivisions_of_the_Russian_Empire_by_largest_ethnolinguistic_group_%281897%29.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Su...
        nullifidian 4y ago
        The second map separates big cities and the rest, could look misleading in some cases.
      - int_19h 4y ago
        This particular map is the territory claimed by the then still newly-minted Ukrainian state. Basically the then-current Ukrainian equivalent of the likes of Greater Serbia, Greater Hungary etc. There was no border in those territories for so long, anything they could have drawn wouldn't really have any meaningful historical connection. So IIRC they went by the Russian Imperial demographic maps and claimed most territories on those showed >25% "Malorossians". Ironically, this ended up pilfering some territories from Belarus, as well - note where Pinsk is on that map!
orthoxerox 4y ago
Outside. Basically, there was a broad swath of territories where smallholder peasants thrived and wouldn't agree to collectivization without state terror. It included most of Soviet-controlled Ukraine and a large chunk of southern Russia. The discussion basically amounts to "are heavy-handed anti-crime policies targeting urban youths racist against Blacks or not?" - "No they aren't, because they target all urban youths, including Hispanics and Whites, and not just Blacks" - "Yes they are, because they affect a disproportionate share of young Black people. The fact that they affect a disproportionate share of young Hispanics doesn't make it less racist"
xkcd1963 4y ago
Rostov-on-Don. It was kind of founded 1749 on decree of the Empress Elizabeth so it couldn't get even more Russian. But we have many different ethnicities there https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TWD2Kkrd_bo https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TWD2Kkrd_bo (german filmmaker 1918)

thescriptkiddie 4y ago

In fact more Kazakhs starved than Ukrainians. The idea that the famine was confined to Ukraine is completely ahistorical.

murdoze 4y ago

Collateral damage

xkcd1963 4y ago
The fact that Holodomor was causing collateral damage as you call it means that it was not specifically targeted at Ukranians. The target must have been something else that might even not have to do with nationality
- murdoze 4y ago
  Dare to substitute Holocaust for Holodomor in this context? If, of course, what you're telling is true.