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Are you saying that hot water based central heating systems with radiators should be replaced by throwing an electric heater in every room? You can't be serious

by dbrgn 4y ago

Are you saying that hot water based central heating systems with radiators should be replaced by throwing an electric heater in every room? You can't be serious. There are quite a few things wrong with that, first of all the efficiency is terrible (that's why they're banned in Switzerland since 2009), secondly the house installations in a lot of homes would probably not be able to cope with the power required to heat all rooms (in my apartment in Switzerland, the fuse would pop out when I turn on two of those 2000W heaters). Third, it's far less convenient if you need to set the heat in every room separately, instead of turning on/up/down/off the central heating system when the outside weather changes.

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
As a quick, temporary emergency measure? Yes.
- j0057 4y ago
  I don't think there are warehouses full of electric heaters waiting on the off chance half a continent switches from central heating to this.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
    a) I think many people already have some heaters sitting around somewhere. b) If a country like Germany can't, within a couple of months, produce something as simple as resistive heaters in significant numbers, something must be seriously wrong. They consist of a cheap case, resistive wire wound into a coil, a fan, and a couple of switches (main power switch, safety switch that turns it off when it tips over). If a design takes 3 minutes to hand-assemble after the easily automatable parts (e.g. stamped sheet metal case, coil) have been made in great numbers, then a single factory with 100 workers will churn out 16000 per 8-hour day, or a million in 3 months. c) even if Germany can't, China can. Maybe not enough for everyone but enough to make a significant dent in gas consumption, together with the ones people already have d) everything that uses electricity is an electric heater. Worst case, heat a large pot of water on the stove.
jupp0r 4y ago
What's the efficiency of a 2kW electric heater? It's 100%, which is not terrible. If the electricity production of your country sucks, that should be fixed for other reasons than heating.
- trashtester 4y ago
  Actually, for most of Europe, it should be fixed specifically for the purpose of enabling electrical heating.
jupp0r 4y ago
These $15 space heaters have thermostats, you set a temperature and they heat the room until that temperature is reached. I'm sure you can get a $50 version that speaks smart home protocols of your choice so you can program schedules if that's what you want. Not sure how turning valves on several water radiators per room is more convenient.
- mbreese 4y ago
  These cheap (seriously a $15 heater can’t produce enough heat to cover a room larger than a small bedroom) heaters also can’t be controlled with a central thermostat. Water radiators (or electric heat pumps, etc) can be controlled for the whole home, or by individual locations (without needing to manually turn valves). In fact, at least in the US, space heaters aren’t allowed to be automatically turned on by any means. They require a person to start it manually each time you want heat. Because they aren’t permanently installed, it is a potential fire hazard. A pet/kid/etc could run past it and knock it over. If that happened near a blanket or pillow, the fabric could catch fire. I can’t imagine being able to buy something less safe in Switzerland.
  - jupp0r 4y ago
    I really don't know what else to tell you. This is $20 on Amazon, has tip over protection and a thermostat. Of course there are inexpensive wall mounted options available that you also plug into a wall outlet. These are super popular in Scandinavia. Portable Electric Space Heater with Thermostat, 1500W/750W Safe and Quiet Ceramic Heater Fan, Heat Up 200 Square Feet for Office Room Desk Indoor Use https://a.co/d/2uD3YJu https://a.co/d/2uD3YJu
    - mbreese 4y ago
      I said a central thermostat. This is the context I was referring to. As in a remotely controlled heater where the thermostat is on the wall as opposed to on the device. This is what you’d need to use to keep a home heated while you aren’t there. I happen to have a space heater on right now next to me. It has a very nice remote app on my phone. And it is very clear that the heat function only works from the device itself (due to a legal requirement to support UL 1278). If your cheap heater has a built in thermostat that turns itself on, that’s great… while you’re there watching it. But I can’t say that’s something that I’d ever feel comfortable leaving always plugged in. They are only ever supposed to be used while attended - for a reason. The updated version of the product you linked to (2022 digital version) even has an automatic shutdown timer. You have to manually start it again after that shutdown. I also have a permanently installed electric heater installed in the wall in a different room. It does have a permanent thermostat that can start/stop automatically. It’s quite a different beast from a $20 space heater with its own circuit back to my breaker box. It works pretty well, but portable, it is not. It was also much more than $20. But, back to your original point — are you really suggesting replacing the entire German heating infrastructure with $20 ceramic heaters from Amazon? How is that a remotely viable solution? These are devices meant for heating a small office. If you want to heat an apartment or house or city, you need different options. And changing those over takes time and more consideration than buying a bunch of $20 space heaters.
jupp0r 4y ago
I don't believe your apartment in Switzerland only has one 16A circuit it can draw from, that wouldn't be up to electrical code in most European countries that require one 16A circuit per room. No expert in Switzerland electric code specifically though. The last apartment in Germany I lived in (1 bedroom 1 bathroom) had 4x16A circuits and separate 3x16A for the electric kitchen stove.
stevage 4y ago
Do you have a source for them being banned? I could only find an article saying they were being phased out by 2025. https://www.thelocal.ch/20120925/swiss-mps-back-ban-on-electric-heaters/ https://www.thelocal.ch/20120925/swiss-mps-back-ban-on-elect...
Miraste 4y ago
>the efficiency is terrible I've heard a few people say this, but it's not true - the efficiency of electric heaters is 100%. They're only detrimental when they run off of fossil-fuel based power plants. Instead of making silly laws banning symptoms, our focus should be on removing the pollution at its source.
- noctune 4y ago
  100% efficiency is terrible compared to the 600% efficiency of a heat pump.

by dbrgn 4y ago

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago

As a quick, temporary emergency measure? Yes.

j0057 4y ago
I don't think there are warehouses full of electric heaters waiting on the off chance half a continent switches from central heating to this.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  a) I think many people already have some heaters sitting around somewhere. b) If a country like Germany can't, within a couple of months, produce something as simple as resistive heaters in significant numbers, something must be seriously wrong. They consist of a cheap case, resistive wire wound into a coil, a fan, and a couple of switches (main power switch, safety switch that turns it off when it tips over). If a design takes 3 minutes to hand-assemble after the easily automatable parts (e.g. stamped sheet metal case, coil) have been made in great numbers, then a single factory with 100 workers will churn out 16000 per 8-hour day, or a million in 3 months. c) even if Germany can't, China can. Maybe not enough for everyone but enough to make a significant dent in gas consumption, together with the ones people already have d) everything that uses electricity is an electric heater. Worst case, heat a large pot of water on the stove.

jupp0r 4y ago

What's the efficiency of a 2kW electric heater? It's 100%, which is not terrible. If the electricity production of your country sucks, that should be fixed for other reasons than heating.

trashtester 4y ago
Actually, for most of Europe, it should be fixed specifically for the purpose of enabling electrical heating.

jupp0r 4y ago

These $15 space heaters have thermostats, you set a temperature and they heat the room until that temperature is reached. I'm sure you can get a $50 version that speaks smart home protocols of your choice so you can program schedules if that's what you want. Not sure how turning valves on several water radiators per room is more convenient.

mbreese 4y ago
These cheap (seriously a $15 heater can’t produce enough heat to cover a room larger than a small bedroom) heaters also can’t be controlled with a central thermostat. Water radiators (or electric heat pumps, etc) can be controlled for the whole home, or by individual locations (without needing to manually turn valves). In fact, at least in the US, space heaters aren’t allowed to be automatically turned on by any means. They require a person to start it manually each time you want heat. Because they aren’t permanently installed, it is a potential fire hazard. A pet/kid/etc could run past it and knock it over. If that happened near a blanket or pillow, the fabric could catch fire. I can’t imagine being able to buy something less safe in Switzerland.
- jupp0r 4y ago
  I really don't know what else to tell you. This is $20 on Amazon, has tip over protection and a thermostat. Of course there are inexpensive wall mounted options available that you also plug into a wall outlet. These are super popular in Scandinavia. Portable Electric Space Heater with Thermostat, 1500W/750W Safe and Quiet Ceramic Heater Fan, Heat Up 200 Square Feet for Office Room Desk Indoor Use https://a.co/d/2uD3YJu https://a.co/d/2uD3YJu
  - mbreese 4y ago
    I said a central thermostat. This is the context I was referring to. As in a remotely controlled heater where the thermostat is on the wall as opposed to on the device. This is what you’d need to use to keep a home heated while you aren’t there. I happen to have a space heater on right now next to me. It has a very nice remote app on my phone. And it is very clear that the heat function only works from the device itself (due to a legal requirement to support UL 1278). If your cheap heater has a built in thermostat that turns itself on, that’s great… while you’re there watching it. But I can’t say that’s something that I’d ever feel comfortable leaving always plugged in. They are only ever supposed to be used while attended - for a reason. The updated version of the product you linked to (2022 digital version) even has an automatic shutdown timer. You have to manually start it again after that shutdown. I also have a permanently installed electric heater installed in the wall in a different room. It does have a permanent thermostat that can start/stop automatically. It’s quite a different beast from a $20 space heater with its own circuit back to my breaker box. It works pretty well, but portable, it is not. It was also much more than $20. But, back to your original point — are you really suggesting replacing the entire German heating infrastructure with $20 ceramic heaters from Amazon? How is that a remotely viable solution? These are devices meant for heating a small office. If you want to heat an apartment or house or city, you need different options. And changing those over takes time and more consideration than buying a bunch of $20 space heaters.

jupp0r 4y ago

I don't believe your apartment in Switzerland only has one 16A circuit it can draw from, that wouldn't be up to electrical code in most European countries that require one 16A circuit per room. No expert in Switzerland electric code specifically though. The last apartment in Germany I lived in (1 bedroom 1 bathroom) had 4x16A circuits and separate 3x16A for the electric kitchen stove.

stevage 4y ago

Do you have a source for them being banned? I could only find an article saying they were being phased out by 2025. https://www.thelocal.ch/20120925/swiss-mps-back-ban-on-electric-heaters/ https://www.thelocal.ch/20120925/swiss-mps-back-ban-on-elect...

Miraste 4y ago

>the efficiency is terrible I've heard a few people say this, but it's not true - the efficiency of electric heaters is 100%. They're only detrimental when they run off of fossil-fuel based power plants. Instead of making silly laws banning symptoms, our focus should be on removing the pollution at its source.

noctune 4y ago
100% efficiency is terrible compared to the 600% efficiency of a heat pump.